Note from Andrew Bishop on Changes to the LightWave Digital Sales Page

Shabazzy said:
Well, let's not forget that the £500 offer consists of a copy of LW2020 and a copy of LW2023 once released. Not only that, you get a free share and a t-shirt or mug and a Blankety Blank cheque book and PEN!
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Being a fan(atic) ElfQuest reader, I spent $500 on ElfQuest's audio movie kickstarter almost 2 years ago to get my hands on all figurines and other merc. :) So I understand and have empathy with LightWave fans who invest in what I perceive as --let's call it for what it is-- a LightWave kickstarter.

That LightWave PEN turns it into an offer that is difficult to ignore, though. :p
 
Rayek said:
Being a fan(atic) ElfQuest reader, I spent $500 on ElfQuest's audio movie kickstarter almost 2 years ago to get my hands on all figurines and other merc. :) So I understand and have empathy with LightWave fans who invest in what I perceive as --let's call it for what it is-- a LightWave kickstarter.

That LightWave PEN turns it into an offer that is difficult to ignore, though. :p
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Well, I don't think it's fair to say that the offer is a LW kickstarter since they are not trying to raise the funds to develop and launch LightWave. They've already secured funding and have what they need to get moving and developing.

They didn't NEED to involve the users at this point. They just thought it would be a nice gesture to invite and include the users into the new company by offering them something as well as letting them know that they are not NewTek or VizRT. They have been very open and very transparent with their intentions and very accessible.

Given the reaction of some to this gesture, it kind of explains why NewTek and VizRT took a "different" approach to their users.

So no. This isn't a kickstarter. It's a gesture of goodwill.

And for those not familiar with the Blankety Blank reference:

 
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@Shabazzy Yes, you are right - not really a Kickstarter. Although to me it does feel like one to me on a certain level: enticing users with 'shares', a copy of the first new release when it's released, and other goodies like a mug, tee, and pen...

Feels somewhat like a Kickstarter, wouldn't you agree? And I mean that in the best sense, btw. Because it is quite nice, and they did not have to go that far.
 
Rayek said:
@Shabazzy Yes, you are right - not really a Kickstarter. Although to me it does feel like one to me on a certain level: enticing users with 'shares', a copy of the first new release when it's released, and other goodies like a mug, tee, and pen...

Feels somewhat like a Kickstarter, wouldn't you agree? And I mean that in the best sense, btw. Because it is quite nice, and they did not have to go that far.
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Well, if that's how it feels to you then, that's how it feels to you.

But I have to make it be known, that even though that's how it may feel, those feelings have no basis in fact. And the facts are what I think people should be aware of. So I'm of the opinion that less consideration should be given to the voices expressing their assessment of the situation having done so by basing them on nothing more than their feelings.

Also, there's no pen in the offer. I was just trying to be funny. But you have to be British and of a "certain age" to fully appreciate the joke.
 
Shabazzy said:
Also, there's no pen in the offer. I was just trying to be funny. But you have to be British and of a "certain age" to fully appreciate the joke.
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...that's why I capitalized the word "pen" and added the emoji. I was in on the joke.
 
Shabazzy said:
Also, there's no pen in the offer. I was just trying to be funny. But you have to be British and of a "certain age" to fully appreciate the joke.
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I fit in that category :) Terry Wogan and his funny car aerial microphone were compulsive viewing at my house when the show first began. Amazingly, I have only just discovered that it was a steal of a US show called 'Match Game'. The good old IMDB reveals these little snippets just when you least expect them :)
 
Without commenting on any particular detail or viewpoint, this whole thread (and many like it, historically) remind me of a proverb I heard somewhere once. It goes like this:
"If a man is of a mind to beat his dog, he will not lack for a stick."
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It seems that there are always those able to find fault with every detail of any and every thing. A certain amount of caveat emptor is only reasonable; where it starts to turn sour to me is when we ascribe devious motives to people.

I'm sure it's useful for both readers and the new company to be given some insight into how their decisions are being perceived, but everything is not a grand conspiracy or scam. Sometimes people make mistakes (especially me!). Sometimes they pick an approach that seems 'good enough to be getting on with' rather than spending weeks trying to come up with the very best thing ever.
 
SBowie said:
Without commenting on any particular detail or viewpoint, this whole thread (and many like it, historically) remind me of a proverb I heard somewhere once. It goes like this:


It seems that there are always those able to find fault with every detail of any and every thing. A certain amount of caveat emptor is only reasonable; where it starts to turn sour to me is when we ascribe devious motives to people.

I'm sure it's useful for both readers and the new company to be given some insight into how their decisions are being perceived, but everything is not a grand conspiracy or scam. Sometimes people make mistakes (especially me!). Sometimes they pick an approach that seems 'good enough to be getting on with' rather than spending weeks trying to come up with the very best thing ever.
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Now you are just looking for faults :D
Otherwise..no faults in the weather over here now, sunny and nice, early summer, so good luck over there and avoid fires this year.
 
RPSchmidt said:
For a hobbyist, paying anything at all honestly makes little sense when you have a free, feature-rich zero-cost alternative with continuous upgrades available to you.
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The reason Blender has been developed so rapitly the last 8 or so years is because of big corps investing millions of USD into it, and there are a lot of charity going on regarding Blender with private people donating money. They have about 170k USD comming in every month. So, no Blender is not "free". In the user case, it is just others that are paying for it.

If people and big corp stopped funding Blender the developement rate would drop as well. I find that very unlikely to happen though.
 
Cageman said:
So, no Blender is not "free".
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In my opinion it is important to distinguish between development (which indeed is not free), learning the software (which again is not free, i.e. it takes time to learn etc.), and availability of the software (which is freely available open source software).

Blender is, and will always be, a free download. As is its course code. Free to use by anyone.
 
lardbros said:
Substance Painter subs are $550 per year and again aren't perpetual unless you buy via Steam (and even then they could potentially remove your license at any time).
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that's only if you want their new rendering app. Painter, designer and sampler are only 20 bucks a month subs. I know because I've been on it for the last 4 years. I have no interest in the perpetual license.
 
Rayek said:
Oops. 500 GBP = 840 CAD. And GBP 250 = CAD 420 to upgrade every year.
= CAD 1260 for the first two years?

Wowsers. To bring this in perspective:

Maxon Cinema4D: CAD 671 per year
Maxon One (which includes Cinema 4D, Redshift GPU, Zbrush, and Red Giant Complete): CAD 1020 per year

Houdini Indie 2 year: CAD 540

Blender CAD 0 forever

Even though neither C4D nor Houdini are perpetual licenses, that pricing doesn't seem to bode too well for LightWave's chances in the market.
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I doubt they are going to get releases out as fast as they plan to. Some of the timelines are a bit unrealistic. They might hit the Nov/Dec 2023 release only because the next version of LW was aleady partially developed. I think the one after that will take much longer. They will likely have more options and realize the price may have to come down at some point. The reality of the 3d market will hit eventually if the current pricing is not accepted but that doesn't mean LW won't succeed, it just means they have to be able to adapt and make wise business decisions as they go.

All that being said I think I'm going to wait and see what they actually release and then likely upgrade at that time. They will need sales then too.
 
Cageman said:
The reason Blender has been developed so rapitly the last 8 or so years is because of big corps investing millions of USD into it, and there are a lot of charity going on regarding Blender with private people donating money. They have about 170k USD comming in every month. So, no Blender is not "free". In the user case, it is just others that are paying for it.
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That's really more of part of how they've evolved so rapidly over the last several years but not why. The why has more to do with how the software is community driven rather than driven by profits or private interests. Blender is developed by a core team but fixes, enhancements and even new features are developed from people in its community (which then have to be reviewed and approved by the core team). So you potentially have hundreds of people working on Blender at any one time.
While a majority of their funding is currently by corporate donations, a good chunk of it is individual user contributions. They've also shown that the community will step up when they've asked it to. Its how Blender got started when they raised the money from its userbase to buy the software from its original investors.
 
Nicolas Jordan said:
I doubt they are going to get releases out as fast as they plan to. Some of the timelines are a bit unrealistic. They might hit the Nov/Dec 2023 release only because the next version of LW was aleady partially developed. I think the one after that will take much longer. They will likely have more options and realize the price may have to come down at some point. The reality of the 3d market will hit eventually if the current pricing is not accepted but that doesn't mean LW won't succeed, it just means they have to be able to adapt and make wise business decisions as they go.
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Yeah I tend to agree. What they are calling the 2023 release might actually remind us of the 2020 release in the amount of new features that are in it. So if you are looking for features it most likely best to wait. I like features as much as the next guy, BTBH as a archviz guy I really don't need new features, I need faster rendering and/or a better noise algorithm. :)
 
SSLightwave said:
You're assuming you're going to be able to sell the share. That's also assuming it won't lose value. That's the thing that gives me pause about it. they said it will increase in value if they do well, but don't say anything about it losing value if they don't. Both are always a possibility when you're dealing with shares of a company. The other component of it is that since they are not a publicly traded company, there's really no way to determine a fair market value for a share. Determining the real value of a share of a private company is based on a lot of assumptions.
I was glad to see someone buy LightWave from NT/VizRT but this whole share thing is ridiculous.
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Yeah I know about the shares thing. :) Seems hokey to me too and there is no way I'd ever buy shares outright. For me its more about supporting the cause for now and see what they can come up with. They don't have that noose and excuse of NT/Vizrt around their neck so if it doesn't work out they have only themselves to blame.
 
Tim Parsons said:
Yeah I tend to agree. What they are calling the 2023 release might actually remind us of the 2020 release in the amount of new features that are in it. So if you are looking for features it most likely best to wait. I like features as much as the next guy, BTBH as a archviz guy I really don't need new features, I need faster rendering and/or a better noise algorithm. :)
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I'm optimistic there will be some features for us Arch Viz guys in the next release. I haven't missed upgrading LW since LW7 so hopefully they will give me at least a small excuse to upgrade.
 
Rayek said:
Max and Maya Indie are CAD $400 per year for anyone earning less than $100,000 per year from creative work. The full versions, and at that sub cost still less expensive than the upgrade from LW 2020.

To be fair, the new team has not published their LightWave pricing yet for when LW 2023's release.

In any case LightWave pricing for indie freelancers, hobbyists, students, and 3d enthusiasts has got to be (much) more affordable than that 500 pounds. Without the "share" GBP 250 would be more in line with market positioning and feature comparison.

The harsh reality is that all major DCCs: Houdini, Blender, Max, and Maya are less expensive than 250GBP per year for 3D indies and hobbyists, and all DCCs are far ahead in regard to development status and feature set(s). Even Cinema4D is less expensive than GBP 500 per year now.

The new LW team must attract new users somehow. On pricing and feature set alone it is an uphill battle in my opinion. But they say they have a 5 year plan in place to turn LightWave competitive again, so it will be interesting to see how LightWave's new chapter unfolds in the upcoming years.
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Yeah, the indie versions are better priced, but you get zero render nodes with that, and those $400 prices are every year and no perpetual license. You're completely tied in, forever, effectively.
The unlimited render nodes with LW is still brilliant, plus other vendors charge huge premiums for perpetual licenses, if they're even available.
(Which they're not for any Autodesk product).

I just don't think the asking price for the new LW is a huge ask, I mean you're supporting a tool you want to see get better... which is why I funded it.
They're still bound to make mistakes, this is all new territory and a huge undertaking, but I trust Andy and Elmar. They will try their very best I'm sure of it.
 
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