My LW 2023 Speculation / wishlist Thread....lol

[Thomas Leitner]

PS when point pulling with subpatch active in Modeler, is there a way to have those vertices align with their subpatched position?

You can display guides: dotted line between subpatch position and actual position (Display Options > Show Guides). However, you hardly need it, since you can manipulate (select, drag...) the point either directly on the actual position or on the subpatched position (wireframe).

ciao
Thomas

 

[prometheus]

I've seen a few other people suggest they model with subD's on and I wonder why people cripple themselves this way- you're just slowing down performance by making edits with SubD on. It's also not giving you a accurate view of your topology (which you yourself said when you have to switch back to polygons to see if anything is intersecting) If you have proper topology, the subdivision should be predictable and you shouldn't have to turn on subD to see how it's going to subdivide.
And there's no need to uncheck the modifier or shortcut/quick favorite it, there are already shortcuts for doing turning on and off the modifier. The shortcuts also give you the ability to control the subD level without having to go into the options or modifier to do so.

Again...and just as someone asked about this kind of modeling in Lightwave, you can see here that it would be impossible to adjust the surface shape in none subdiv mode, to finalize your desired shape, this works the same with Lightwave subpatch modeling, so can´t you see why that is important?

In rhino it seems to be a bit slow on that case though, as you pointed out, but for a similar object in lightwave, not that slow, but depends if you choose the Catmull Clark mode or standard subpatch, standard subpatch would of course require more carefully thought out divisions.

 

[Rayek]

The way someone models, with or without subd turned on, depends on personal preferences and the project at hand. I'd say "it depends".

@Thomas Leitner Thank you. Not exactly what I was hoping for. I'm spoiled by other DCCs, I guess. It's very strange that those vertices are 'floating' in the air, which can be confusing.

Hopefully the new team will modernize that part of LightWave and bring the CC subd implementation up to modern standards.

 

[prometheus]

The way someone models, with or without subd turned on, depends on personal preferences and the project at hand. I'd say "it depends".

@Thomas Leitner Thank you. Not exactly what I was hoping for. I'm spoiled by other DCCs, I guess. It's very strange that those vertices are 'floating' in the air, which can be confusing.

Hopefully the new team will modernize that part of LightWave and bring the CC subd implementation up to modern standards.

Exactly, I wouldn´t go in to subpatch editing of a face on characters in the subdivision level of standard daz figures for instance, those are already divided so much to resemble its final shape as close as possible, so the subpatch surface activation would be there mostly to smooth things out.

Though I have experienced that daz studio character eyes when subpatched in blender for instance, the cornea surface and the eye surface get´s intersected, and you will get render errors because of it.. that is an example where you really need to adjust it within microns, and perhap do so with subpatch active to see the final result while doing so.
One could or perhaps really should replace those eyes with your own better ones, if you have an eye for it so to speak.

For basic shapes, a saddle, simple forms, flowers, organic simple shapes or design shapes otherwise that doesn´t need that much geometry, it helps to use the lowest geometry as possible while still being able to get a smooth surface, and that is where modeling in subpatch mode is shining, and where it´s absolutely in vein of having crude box shapes that resembles nothing of the final surface.

And of course, at what level you intend to render and maybe also animate, that governs the decision to either use the lowest level of geometry possible, and subpatch on or of while editing is governed by that, or more denser divisions in case of other cases....








I am not denying there should be improvements to the catmull clark version though, why not.

using lightwave and blender often together, is a bit confusing though, especially with the shortcuts, tab for subpatching, and tab for edit mode in blender, and I often turn on the playline in blender when I am so used to toggle between edge, poly and point mode in lightwave modeler, so that happens in blender editing.

I am in process of adapting the spacebar to something else in lightwave, in layout that is now the same as in blender, embergen, davinci resolve, youtube and video playing, it plays the timeline, I just need to find another shortcut maybe for toggling selection modes in modeler.

 

[SSLightwave]

I disagree..you would need to work with much higher subdived polygons with none subpatch editing..thus more polys to select rather than one or two
...only then can you get the proximity look for the final stage..but for basic organic shapes or forms...it is no lag at all..cause I am not using catmull clark.

Its not about having to work with much higher subdivisions- its as I said about having proper topology to be able to have predictable subivision so you dont' even have to turn it on to know what it will do. In subD that means control edges/loops or sometimes in the case of CC's edge weighting to control the tension of subdivision where you need it.
Subpatch weights in modeler are for the most part worthless in comparison because they sharpen every edge flowing into a vertex which limits the control you have in various directions. The first pic shows that you don't have to have hundred or thousands of polygons to get a predictable shape, you just have to control your edges.

If you like working all the time with subD on- ok that's a choice. but it doesn't give you a proper view of the topology while you're working(which is part of why you don't always see overlapping polgon faces). Take the second pic below, on the left, I've run a bandsaw on an object with subpatch on.... looks like I added it about 3/4 of the way at the top, right?. But on the right you'll see when you turn off SubD, that edge is practically sitting directly next to the top edge instead. Its completely misleading.

But we can chock it up to difference of opinion and that's fine- but the issue I have is that I'm still on LW 2015 because I got sick of them ignoring modeler- its so antiquated in comparison to everything else out there. Just like Rayek said, its really difficult to imagine working in Modeler any longer. Only been waiting for them to address CC subD's since they put them in for version 9, eleven some years ago.

 

[prometheus]

Its not about having to work with much higher subdivisions- its as I said about having proper topology to be able to have predictable subivision so you dont' even have to turn it on to know what it will do. In subD that means control edges/loops or sometimes in the case of CC's edge weighting to control the tension of subdivision where you need it.
Subpatch weights in modeler are for the most part worthless in comparison because they sharpen every edge flowing into a vertex which limits the control you have in various directions. The first pic shows that you don't have to have hundred or thousands of polygons to get a predictable shape, you just have to control your edges.

If you like working all the time with subD on- ok that's a choice. but it doesn't give you a proper view of the topology while you're working(which is part of why you don't always see overlapping polgon faces). Take the second pic below, on the left, I've run a bandsaw on an object with subpatch on.... looks like I added it about 3/4 of the way at the top, right?. But on the right you'll see when you turn off SubD, that edge is practically sitting directly next to the top edge instead. Its completely misleading.

But we can chock it up to difference of opinion and that's fine- but the issue I have is that I'm still on LW 2015 because I got sick of them ignoring modeler- its so antiquated in comparison to everything else out there. Just like Rayek said, its really difficult to imagine working in Modeler any longer. Only been waiting for them to address CC subD's since they put them in for version 9, eleven some years ago.

No..I just don´t get it.
do you mean that my first image in post 144, would be more accurate to final topology than the subpatched one? that is just impossible, the subpatch surface is more accurate to the final form intended, than without it active, and that is to keep the lowest geometry level possible intact.
if ctrl d, to freeze it, it would maintain pretty much the shape as with subpatched only.


I understand there are other cases where you have to take a note of all that with geometry but not in others, as I just described...there´s no need.
It all depends on complexity of the model, and isn´t something that is Always valid generally.

As for subpatch weigths, depends on what you model, but you have a point for sure.

As for your pictures, that is a given with hardsurface modeling that subpatch surfaces is interpolating corners to not fit exactly the underlying topology, that is where you need edge weight sharpness or more loops tightly, but that isn´t to say you always need that kind of subpatch hardmodeling, on contrary, you may want rounder edges only, and there..subpatch surfaces will just do fine as is.

Personally I am fully aware of that difference in topology when turning on and off subpatch surfaces, and you would just need to make a decision on to which form you want, add divisions before subpatching, or after, as yo see fit, edge editing can be done in subpatch mode to adjust for that, the subpatch surface mode is there to give you the feedback of the final look of the shape, where the none subpatch mode simple ..isn´t, that pertains for all the cases you intend to smooth out your model with subpatch surface..if not..you simply do not even add any subpatch modifer or level at all.

In blender you either add subpatch set to simple to provide the sharpness, or add edgeloops to maintain the subpatch form more closely to the underlying topology, same in lightwave modeler, except there you can´t have a none destructive simple division, since there are no modifiers.

so I tend to look at it that the topology I aim for, is the one in the subpatch level, and not the base geometry, the switch to none subpatch levels I do not do to check main shape topology really, but to make sure points aren´t intersecting to cause any errors when mergin points etc.

 

[Rayek]

I'd say that tweaking shapes (such as a poly modeled face) works just fine with subd on (and may be preferred to control the final shape). But I tend to agree with @SSLightwave that if I am focusing on good topology and creating new loops, etc. I tend to turn subd off, because it can indeed be confusing and lead to silly results.

But again, it depends. I'd almost never ever start building something from scratch with subd active, though. One exception to this rule would be the skinning modifier technique to model car surfaces. Not something you can pull off in Modeler, so not important here.

 

[prometheus]

I'd say that tweaking shapes (such as a poly modeled face) works just fine with subd on (and may be preferred to control the final shape). But I tend to agree with @SSLightwave that if I am focusing on good topology and creating new loops, etc. I tend to turn subd off, because it can indeed be confusing and lead to silly results.

But again, it depends. I'd almost never ever start building something from scratch with subd active, though. One exception to this rule would be the skinning modifier technique to model car surfaces. Not something you can pull off in Modeler, so not important here.

I modeled a lot of cusions for gym seats some years ago, modeling in subpatch mode was crucial, I wouldn´t work with the base geometry in none subpatch mode for that, I would just end up having to tab all the time, modeling straight on with subpatch reduced the tab actions, and final results was pleasing.

As for skinning modifier technique, to model car surfaces? sample showcase, and why isn´t you can´t pull that of in Lightwave modeler?

Oh ..as for the junk geometry on my sample..I think SSLightwave noted, that is obvious, with that growth diffusion plugin, it is unavoidable, you do not model that manually, and that kind of geometry is what it produces, you would have to go in and remesh it in such case if aiming for more pleasing mesh divisions.

But for simpler forms, it is a given/unavoidable that you need more geometry on the base geometry for it to produce an accurate represntation of the final form, as non subpatch, this will lead to more geometry while loading many of those elements in to the scene, denser scene handling, while keeping it as low as possible would give you more lightweight meshes in the scene, until you toggle subpatch on..in a case where you may have a lot in the scene, this matters.

 

[prometheus]

You can display guides: dotted line between subpatch position and actual position (Display Options > Show Guides). However, you hardly need it, since you can manipulate (select, drag...) the point either directly on the actual position or on the subpatched position (wireframe).

ciao
Thomas

and show cage for the cage..obviously.
The cage handling, able to tweak by those, and displays of it, and how to activate and turn off, is by far better in blender though, lightwave native is limited to just display guides of the cage and the alignment guides towards the subpatch level.

I don´t think there is any plugin to enhance the subpatch cage options in Lightwave.

 

[prometheus]

And there's no need to uncheck the modifier or shortcut/quick favorite it, there are already shortcuts for doing turning on and off the modifier. The shortcuts also give you the ability to control the subD level without having to go into the options or modifier to do so.

Revisiting that again, and I understand now why I didn´t catch on to that.
Ctrl and numbers, 1,2,3 for corresponding level.

But ..I was using the num pad, which only will switch viewport, maybe something needs to be set in the keymapping there, otherwise ..using the standard top row numbers works.
And..I often miss to select the object, an inherent habit of trusting Everything is selected in Lightwave modeler, so if not selecting the object, no can do.
And..Edit mode, ctrl and numbers shortcut simply won´t work..is there any option to get that working? I mean, the subdiv modifier values are working..so why not the shortcuts?

 

[SSLightwave]

Revisiting that again, and I understand now why I didn´t catch on to that.
Ctrl and numbers, 1,2,3 for corresponding level.

But ..I was using the num pad, which only will switch viewport, maybe something needs to be set in the keymapping there, otherwise ..using the standard top row numbers works.
And..I often miss to select the object, an inherent habit of trusting Everything is selected in Lightwave modeler, so if not selecting the object, no can do.
And..Edit mode, ctrl and numbers shortcut simply won´t work..is there any option to get that working? I mean, the subdiv modifier values are working..so why not the shortcuts?

Its likely a context sensitive matter. A lot of shortcuts are context sensitive depending on what mode you are in or even what window you are hovering over. For instance shift A is for adding objects in the 3D viewport but that same shift A hovering your cursor over the outliner will expand hierarchies. You'll notice your quick favorites also change depending on whether you're in object or edit mode.
Since modidiers are applied at the object level, its likely those shortcuts are only for objects.

 

[prometheus]

Its likely a context sensitive matter. A lot of shortcuts are context sensitive depending on what mode you are in or even what window you are hovering over. For instance shift A is for adding objects in the 3D viewport but that same shift A hovering your cursor over the outliner will expand hierarchies. You'll notice your quick favorites also change depending on whether you're in object or edit mode.
Since modidiers are applied at the object level, its likely those shortcuts are only for objects.

Yes I know all that.

But your final line?
not really, if you go directly to edit mode in blender, you can apply the modifier from there, so you don´t have to add it in object mode, but sure..if it in essense is applied at object level ..that may be so.
but you can apply it in edit mode, work on it with the 1.2.3 etc level sliders in edit mode, and work on the edges etc in subpatched mode, so why not make that open to a shortcut access?

Perhaps someone has, or it can be done, though I am not gonna spend that much of time researching it right now, may have to ask over at those forums.

 

[prometheus]

Oh wait,
Ctrl-D subpatches back and forth it in edit mode in blender, but I am not sure if I added that as a shortcut myself or if it is by default?
It only works though with display modifier in viewport, so that shouldn´t be off.
Or..I am getting tired, we talked about increasing levels by shortcut commands in edit mode for subpatches, and that still seem to be off in edit mode with ctrl 1,2.3 etc. while working only with slider values.

 

[SSLightwave]

Oh wait,
Ctrl-D subpatches back and forth it in edit mode in blender, but I am not sure if I added that as a shortcut myself or if it is by default?
It only works though with display modifier in viewport, so that shouldn´t be off.
Or..I am getting tired, we talked about increasing levels by shortcut commands in edit mode for subpatches, and that still seem to be off in edit mode with ctrl 1,2.3 etc. while working only with slider values.

You must have added that yourself. If you really need it, you can simply right click on the little icon (realtime) in the subD modifier and either make that a shortcut or add to quick favorites and be able to toggle it on or off that way.

 

[prometheus]

You must have added that yourself. If you really need it, you can simply right click on the little icon (realtime) in the subD modifier and either make that a shortcut or add to quick favorites and be able to toggle it on or off that way.

Yes, thanks..I believe I did that, but memory fails now.
And as you say, I think I did it by using the icon, right click and change shortcut, or add, then click a key for it.
So mine is ctrl-d for it to swap to subpatch and back.

 

[Sensei]

Or alternatively display the underlying polygon cage?

It is possible to write 3rd party plugin which will display cage (wireframe or transparent polygons)..

 

[BakuryuOh]

I wish for the new version of lightwave they would remove the banking that happens when you alt-Drag on the perspective viewport, just please disable that altogether and enable only with a key pressed or something...doubt that would be implemented though...

 

[prometheus]

I wish for the new version of lightwave they would remove the banking that happens when you alt-Drag on the perspective viewport, just please disable that altogether and enable only with a key pressed or something...doubt that would be implemented though...

If you talk about modeler perspective view, use the orbit icon instead..that will give you more fixed rotation, otherwise you have to left mouse click to adjust rotation to your liking..since it adapts to where your mouse is, but agreed..not optimal, I prefer the blender way for that.

If you middle mouse click on that rotation icon or use alt-ctrl, you will get step increased rotations that are almost fixed until you snap over, so that would also work a bit in favour to lock the rotation.

 

[Rayek]

I wish for the new version of lightwave they would remove the banking that happens when you alt-Drag on the perspective viewport, just please disable that altogether and enable only with a key pressed or something...doubt that would be implemented though...

Very much agree with you here. It's infuriating that it cannot be turned off. The tiny orbit icon is not a proper solution, in particular when using a wacom tablet in my experience.

I have a feeling that is one of the first things the new team will fix, because you certainly are not the only one to have complained about that frustrating viewport behaviour in Modeler. On Discord it's one of the things that's come up quite a few times now.

Very low hanging fruit, and I'd be very surprised if it is not fixed by the end of the year when they plan to release the next version. Or at the very least an option in the prefs to switch.

(And it is very inconsistent behaviour between the two apps)

 

[BakuryuOh]

I have a feeling that is one of the first things the new team will fix, because you certainly are not the only one to have complained about that frustrating viewport behaviour in Modeler. On Discord it's one of the things that's come up quite a few times now.

I'm not ? A number of people have brought that up ? Wow....I'm moved ! Thanks for letting me know that !

(And it is very inconsistent behaviour between the two apps)

Don't even...man that pisses me off so much...
But yeah I gave up learning Lightwave because of the ridiculous banking that happens in viewport, I can tolerate a lot of abuse from 3D programs, but for some reason, this one got me to stop learning Lightwave.