Will you upgrade/buy when/if Lightwave 2021 comes out?

[wingzeta]

Every time a person comes to this LIGHTWAVE forum with a question on how to achieve a certain effect, they can be sure that they will get an answer of how it would be better to do it in Blender, or "use blender as a plugin for lightwave." That's a cute idea, but if someone wants to know how to achieve the effect in Blender they would go to the blender forum. So what happens is, every thread, where a user is trying to get a straight answer on how to achieve the effect in Lightwave, (not any other program), they have to sift through tons of blender talk.

But you might say; they can do it more efficiently if they use blender with Lightwave, or just blender, so I'm helping them. But it's not a help. They didn't come to the LW forum to find the most efficient method or your preferred method. They came to find out how the effect can be achieved in Lightwave, slow processes, workarounds, cheats and all. Because, often, that is the app they already have installed, open, and know how to use.

It's not more efficient to take on the learning curve of a new program when you are just trying to solve a problem right now to get a project out the door. So all the blender answers actually waste a lot of time for people looking for a Lightwave answer. Just a reminder, blender has it's own forums. This is not that, nor is it the Lightwave/blender forum. One of those does exist somewhere. It's not here.

If I'm working on a volvo engine, and I go to a volvo forum for some advice, I don't want to waste time with people telling me to get a toyota instead, or to use the toyota to tow the volvo around town. I want to fix the volvo whether you like the volvo or not. If your experience is that toyota is better, I don't care, I came to the volvo forum. Even if the toyotas are free, the volvo is sitting in my garage, and I want to fix it, so I want info on that.

So, try to be helpful in a Lightwave context, those are the answers that will actually help people who come to this forum. They know where to find blender answers if they need to.

 

[Marander]

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[Meshbuilder]

I think it’s very strange that people who use LightWave professionally wouldn’t pay for an upgrade.

Probably one of the reasons we are in this situation is because of people refusing to pay for the last updates. Yes, many of us aren’t happy with some of the changes, or lack of in the last releases but just complaining about it and refuse to pay the developers, how would that help? If you doesn’t support it, the less chance you have to get your feature request. 495 USD for an update is not a lot of money, in a lot of countries. In Sweden the price for the update is probably a days payed work for a freelancer, down to half a day for a production company.

But all this doesn’t matter when the Vizrt doesn’t want to continue develop it or show any sign that they even support the current version by fixing some of the worst bugs that keep people from using it. (The play bug that freezes the software is horrible).

 

[prometheus]

Every time a person comes to this LIGHTWAVE forum with a question on how to achieve a certain effect, they can be sure that they will get an answer of how it would be better to do it in Blender, or "use blender as a plugin for lightwave." That's a cute idea, but if someone wants to know how to achieve the effect in Blender they would go to the blender forum. So what happens is, every thread, where a user is trying to get a straight answer on how to achieve the effect in Lightwave, (not any other program), they have to sift through tons of blender talk.

But you might say; they can do it more efficiently if they use blender with Lightwave, or just blender, so I'm helping them. But it's not a help. They didn't come to the LW forum to find the most efficient method or your preferred method. They came to find out how the effect can be achieved in Lightwave, slow processes, workarounds, cheats and all. Because, often, that is the app they already have installed, open, and know how to use.

It's not more efficient to take on the learning curve of a new program when you are just trying to solve a problem right now to get a project out the door. So all the blender answers actually waste a lot of time for people looking for a Lightwave answer. Just a reminder, blender has it's own forums. This is not that, nor is it the Lightwave/blender forum. One of those does exist somewhere. It's not here.

If I'm working on a volvo engine, and I go to a volvo forum for some advice, I don't want to waste time with people telling me to get a toyota instead, or to use the toyota to tow the volvo around town. I want to fix the volvo whether you like the volvo or not. If your experience is that toyota is better, I don't care, I came to the volvo forum. Even if the toyotas are free, the volvo is sitting in my garage, and I want to fix it, so I want info on that.

So, try to be helpful in a Lightwave context, those are the answers that will actually help people who come to this forum. They know where to find blender answers if they need to.

That´s really only your presumptions perspective on how they want their help, how do you know for sure a person wouldn´t be interested of solving an effect with the help of other software, in fact A lot has to do with other software, from additional painting tools like krita, photoshop, inkscape ..illustrator.

If you think just because they ask here, everyone would be dead set to not even consider anything else..then you simply are wrong, even though many may just want to keep everything in lightwave.

It could be using meshmixer, which someone asked not long ago how to do a certain shape on surfaces which lightwave wasn´t ideal for, but he still asked for how to do it in here, but went for mesh mixer o solve the problem.

It could be problem of mesh formats, would you restrain from talking about converter tools?
It could be aproblem of liuqids, would you restrain from talking about realflow, or additional plugins to help solve it?
It could be a particle effect, sculpting effect that you need to enlighten someone about that it may be better to try something that simply Is better, then you know..it is all up to the targetet user to choose whatever he want´s after the advice.

the problem is foremost you and of course many others who feels irritated how hearing blender foremost in the Lightwave forums, It´s really not the issues of where it is appropiate to solve the task they have at hand.

Volvos has nothing to do with 3D software and It is a completely different framework to work on a car brand and all which that embodies to fix something.

Trying to be helpful from a lightwave perspective is obvious..foremost to do so and I think it´s obvious many of us do that since we know both of the worlds, while you probably do not know the other part since you can´t tolerate working in it nor hear about it, it´s not a very good practice to solve an issue Lightwave doesn´t do well, never has and never will be..

If you can´t import a Glb model from the windows built in 3d viewer, but you want it..and you can´t import that with Lightwave..what would you do, still persist to try and import something you can´t?
or would you throw it in to blender which import it just fine and then export it out to lightwave and you are done.
Or would you reference another tool to do the conversion ..which in any case would be off topic for lightwave anyway?

Seems to me it would be better of for Any user who Wants to solve some issues, to know what tool they can do to either overcome a no working import, of function by takin advantage of other tools.

 

[prometheus]

That's a good analogy. I agree for tech help section but this is a 'will you upgrade' post of an application that seems not to be developed and supported any more. So you'd have expect talk about alternatives.

Strange Michael, I do not agree with you on this, now I am mad se my post above on why that analogy isn´t working well with a 3D software tool...quite a difference in the entity, it´s class and what it does and what customers do or behave for these kind of things.

 

[prometheus]

I think it’s very strange that people who use LightWave professionally wouldn’t pay for an upgrade.

I agree, as a first notion, but it´s perspectives anyway and ultimately what it brings to the table as a software, otherwise we wouldn´t have had chris jones, lino Grandi, margolius, William Vaughn and many others former proffesional users ever leaving to choose another too which they find is better,

To make a story short, I do not think it´s about a release, and that you have payed for it and use it proffessionally, I think it´s about when the release comes, and what the release contains, and finally, what the user intends to do with it.

The first notion is more about what a user is used to and perhaps how well it worked for them, and how pleased they may have been with the later releases and that may bring in hopes for the next unexplored release.

 

[PetGerbil]

One person has mentioned Blender 36 times in one thread.

 

[prometheus]

One person has mentioned Blender 36 times in one thread.

Those who oppose the idea of mentioning the other software just adds the name blender to a thread and that counting..every time, they do inflate it even more mostly.

And it´s just counting trivia which has no worth to solve an issue, and not really any worth to discuss around either, I can do with that if others can do with the reasoning of having to mention other software when Lightwave can´t handle something well.

Otherwise we would need a completely new policy.,.where forum rules are set up to absolutely forbid any talk of anything else than lightwave ..and then we can watch how the forum slowly dies..and get´s quite inpractical as well.

Did you count how many times I in these forums have put negative attribute values on "blender" ? I could also gather the ones from blender artist forums, but that would be to overdoing it all I think

It´s just funny, I actually think people mentioning blender(or any other software) in context with why they may not upgrade, to be properly in topic,
It´´s not per say any forum rule break as if it were promotion.

if Lightwave simply fails in one area, while inflating a discussion with .."why do you use the word blender and have that go in a ferris wheel around arond to be more off topic, and yes..with these very post I consider myself even guilty to that"

 

[prometheus]

But all this doesn’t matter when the Vizrt doesn’t want to continue develop it or show any sign that they even support the current version by fixing some of the worst bugs that keep people from using it. (The play bug that freezes the software is horrible).

I think the management, lack of developers right now, lack of transparency in communication is the real issue they may face, still If a release will come this year, not any forum hickup on what we can discuss around other tools to solve our 3D graphic issues.
Yes..I agree with you as well.

I would love if it took a new turn for the better, but unfortunately I do not trust this is the way it will go with reference to what is communicated before, and what is visible in the latest release with it´s feature set and stability.

If we should Not talk about the issues around lightwave, where it succeeds and where it doesn´t work, then this thread should only be a locked poll without a discussion.

 

[prometheus]

I understand. There's a difference between mentioning another applications in an appropriate context and promoting it, but setting aside the need for some good judgement around that somewhat fuzzy line, whether you spell the application name out in full or not wouldn't be the determining factor.

There you go..

 

[PetGerbil]

40 times

 

[Meshbuilder]

You can start counting me in. I´m now gonna mention "it" 5 times and also 2 other 3D software

I think people is just getting tired of hearing (every time) what other software can do when they rather (if possible) want to know how to solve it with the current tools and workflow we have in LightWave, in a LightWave 3D forum.

But I wouldn't have a problem with hearing how to use use Blender together with LightWave, using it as a plugin.
But saying "just use Blender" or "Blender has this" doesn't help much.

It not at easy as "why don't you render with GPU in Blender, it's free?". You need to transfer you camera, models, deformations, morphs, lights, texturing, shading without redoing all the work that you are good/fast at doing and maybe even like doing in LightWave. Last timed I checked even the FBX camera exported from LW3D got fucked up when I tried to load it into Blender. But it works pixel perfect with both C4D and Maya.

 

[prometheus]

40 times

yes..shabbazzy mentioned it a lot, without any context other than a funny story, so not related to any topic on why you may not want to upgrade.
And you mentioned it twice now, it´s a darn ferris wheel, which will not stop until someone stops feeding the whell with that name we don´t speak about in here.
And even Sbowie mentioned it a couple of time..you see, it´s better to talk contextual about where the issues are than inflating it with this word and have even more single posts around wether or not we should mention what we should not mention.

for fun I gathered all my posts with postnr marketing where I drag this name up, and in what context..and most of it is about discussing around when and if we should talk about another software.

I could post all those with a proper context case evidence, so show you all how funny it is, and where it has been appropiate in context to Lightwave..and where it is in context of just babbling with others around not talking about it.
But then I would just enforce more momentum to this ferris wheel.

 

[prometheus]

You can start counting me in. I´m now gonna mention "it" 5 times and also 2 other 3D software

I think people is just getting tired of hearing (every time) what other software can do when they rather (if possible) want to know how to solve it with the current tools and workflow we have in LightWave, in a LightWave 3D forum.

I don´t think it´s about what other software can do, it´s mostly focused on One single software..and the reason for that is that it´s the only one for free capable of handling most stuff, no other does, you can mention modo, houdini, cinema4D, 3d max, maya...non can be compared, none as in masses have the ability to use it due to it´s cost, that is why the open source solution get´s mentioned so much, and that is where the underlying fear is for the beloved lightwave to have users migrating.
had it been houdini as open source, or maya..it would be the same or worse, but they aren´t open source.

So I would think it´s more the tiresome repetion of the open source software than any other software, and what potentional thread that brings to those who are fearful of Lightwave loosing out users.

 

[prometheus]

You can start counting me in. I´m now gonna mention "it" 5 times and also 2 other 3D software

I think people is just getting tired of hearing (every time) what other software can do when they rather (if possible) want to know how to solve it with the current tools and workflow we have in LightWave, in a LightWave 3D forum.

But I wouldn't have a problem with hearing how to use use Blender together with LightWave, using it as a plugin.
But saying "just use Blender" or "Blender has this" doesn't help much.

It not at easy as "why don't you render with GPU in Blender, it's free?". You need to transfer you camera, models, deformations, morphs, lights, texturing, shading without redoing all the work that you are good/fast at doing and maybe even like doing in LightWave. Last timed I checked even the FBX camera exported from LW3D got fucked up when I tried to load it into Blender. But it works pixel perfect with both C4D and Maya.

Yes FBX sucks in there, I know..among other things..tried with fbx from paint 3d, no textures got through, I am frustrated about the lack of fractals compared to what we got in Lightwave, the surface editor isn´t as nice as Lightwaves..and many other things such as viewports and some displacement layering techniques.

Import/export varies a lot, it does have other things like sketchup import and many other importers Lightwave hasn´t.
Just tried glb import from 3d viewer model library, since Lightwave can´t import that.. and it´s great and shows textures and lighting shading in openGL in a fantastic way lightwave can´t, I get images without even having to render them for at least a decent visualisation of something...directly in the material viewport only.

Edit..Yes, camera export with fbx not working pixel perfect..I noticed when I did a train test with smoke fluids and camera not perfect matching, have to research that more.

 

[Mastoy]

I think it’s very strange that people who use LightWave professionally wouldn’t pay for an upgrade.

Probably one of the reasons we are in this situation is because of people refusing to pay for the last updates. Yes, many of us aren’t happy with some of the changes, or lack of in the last releases but just complaining about it and refuse to pay the developers, how would that help? If you doesn’t support it, the less chance you have to get your feature request. 495 USD for an update is not a lot of money, in a lot of countries. In Sweden the price for the update is probably a days payed work for a freelancer, down to half a day for a production company.

But all this doesn’t matter when the Vizrt doesn’t want to continue develop it or show any sign that they even support the current version by fixing some of the worst bugs that keep people from using it. (The play bug that freezes the software is horrible).

I speak only for myself but here is my situation :
I'v used LW professionally, every single day since the last 20 years. The first 10 years in a company, the last 10 years as a freelance.
For the last 10 years, I've happily bought every LW version. Every time, I purchased it for 2 reasons : for the new features, and as a thank you because LW put food in my plate.
LW 2018 was the first version that I purchased only because I wanted to be up to date. No new feature that I really needed.
Same for LW 2019, but back then I started to worry about the lack of really cool new feature. But hey, LW had been my partner for 20 years so I paid for the upgrade, just to help developpers.
I bought LW 2020 as well, thinking "There nothing for me in it", I installed it and saw how buggy it was, simply unusable in production.
So no, I won't buy LW 2021, if it ever exists, I've paid enough, I've done my part. Consider I "helped" the developpers with the last 3 versions of LW, and in my point of view, the let me down.
That won't take away all the love I have for LW, but at the end of the day, NT is a company and I'm a customer, not a friend.
Where does that put me, in your opinion ?

 

[Marander]

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[Meshbuilder]

That won't take away all the love I have for LW, but at the end of the day, NT is a company and I'm a customer, not a friend.
Where does that put me, in your opinion ?

A pissed off customer
I think your done your part for Newtek. Many have.

2020 is the first version I think you shouldn't buy to show your support. Buy it only if you need it.
Vizrt/Newtek haven't shown any sign of them supporting it or that they will even use your money to continue to make LightWave better.
Rather the opposite if you look at were they have moved the last members of the team that they haven't fired or quit them self.

Me personally, like 2020 and think it's the best of them. I hated the renderingen engine in the beginning and for me they fixed it in 2020.
I began to like it and where they were going with it.

But there's some nasty bugs that is hard to ignore.

 

[Meshbuilder]

Yeah that's because due to Blender licensing, the FBX exchange is not based on the official Autodesk FBX libraries.

Other commercial application have very good FBX support and work well together with LW.

However there is the 'Better FBX' plugin for Blender which works sometimes better than the native import / export.

Alright. Had thought that with the money and big companies they have backing it today they would manage to make a great FBX import/exporter.
Isn't Autodesk FBX library free to use?

 

[MichaelBeckwith]

I am now mildy curious...... Does Promethues actually go to B L E N D E R forums? If he does, does he tell all the B L E N D E R users there how awesome Lightwave is and how thigs can be done in Lightwave 3D just as much as they can be done in B L E N D E R. I doubt he has even got an account in a B L E N D E R forum which is kind of amusing.

Prometheus can you give us some links to some B L E N D E R forum posts where he states how awesome Lightwave 3D is and the things that can done better in Lightwave 3D? If he is open minded surely somethings can be done in Lightwave 3D than B L E N D E R and surely he has posted in some B L E N D E R forums to educate them that Lightwave 3D is better in this case. Please show us these postings.