What does Lightwave need to bring us up to par with the big guns

[prometheus]

I'm sure there's a website or something to find out how it is marketed.

Their main audience is product rendering...an audience that already has a CAD model. You can tell the focus of an app from the interchange file formats. Proprietary CAD compatibility is not cheap to license.

Prometheus, check out the marketing for KeyShot. It is marketed to amateurs with the same skillset to use Microsoft Word. The job postings with KeyShot in the description are meaningless. You can learn the software in an afternoon. https://www.keyshot.com/features/how-it-works/

If it´s so simple to learn, it´s only gonna make it more popular..not the other way around.
And same skillset to use microsoft word? No don´t think so..by logic it´s a different software thus requiring different skills, it may be just as easy, but definitely different.

They are however right in that it is so easy to use that you can produce product design mostly faster than in for instance Lightwave..that is what I said when I was testing it out for gym renders many years ago, but it was too expensive..and I aldready had a Lightwave License which I promoted for my employer when we looked at what we could use, the enginner tried maxwell but it was intensively slow that it took a day to render something, which I later could render within few seconds minutes in Lightwave.
But what I got from keyshot at that time was more realistic lighting, faster render and better surfaces.

Current lightwave and other free software have however closed that gap a bit I think, at least compared to what I tried then..how Keyshot performs now I really don´t know.

 

[prometheus]

I'm sure there's a website or something to find out how it is marketed.

As I said in a post previous before you posted this above...
I get newsmail from a large 3D printer retailer over here, that constantly promotes Keyshot along with Zbrush, maya and 3d max.
I am sure that mail goes out to a fairly large user base of product designers, there was quite many on a certain community forum at some point before they shut down that forum form.

Seems like some sort of retailer software companionship marketing with collaboration per country, and not a general marketing on one site only.

 

[prometheus]

Jet Cooper showing off at Keyshot forums..

Helms of Power - The Samurai

Helms of Power - The Samurai

forum.keyshot.com

But he doesn´t bother on any competition, he uses what fits best in any given situation..sometimes Lightwave or quite often perhaps, and sometimes Keyshot.
It´s not a matter of thinking "this product isn´t hard enough to learn"
But it´s so easy to use that I can spit out production design in seconds.

Here quoting Jet Cooper... June 05, 2019, 10:14:06 am »
"These are the proofs made possible with Keyshot.... This is my take on a Samurai.
https://forum.keyshot.com/index.php?topic=24498.0"

It may in fact be that he simply models mostly in lightwave and turn to Keyshot mostly for product rendering, it´s not a bad combo if keyshot performs so much faster in rendering and with great renders as well, and he can afford it if he tells studios what he need to use and purchase I reckon, I think he stated that.
Modeling in keyshot?...well.

 

[prometheus]

You can tell the focus of an app from the interchange file formats. Proprietary CAD compatibility is not cheap to license.

that is irrelevant, I could export to 3Ds object from Lightwave at the time around 2011 when I tried it, You don´t need any cad licensed software.
It´s a more compatible with..
Dxf export should also be possible within Lightwave, or blender.

• 3ds Max (.3ds)
• ALIAS 2019 and prior (.wire)
• AutoCAD (.dwg, .dxf)
• CATIA v5-6 (.cgr, .catpart, .catproduct, .catdrawing)
• Cinema 4D R20 and prior (.c4d)
• Creo 5.0 and prior (.prt, .asm)
• Creo View (.pvz, .pvs, .edz, .ed, .c3di, .ol)

I also notice that they mention keyshot a lot with cinema4D and Zbrush.

 

[Rayek]

Some hot-link to/from Blender wouldn't be a bad idea from my pov.
Best of both worlds: something to rely on, and something to experiment.

I proposed such a link years ago here. Ditch Modeler, use Blender for modeling, etc. and then send the result to Layout for rendering. But this was before the new 2018 PBR renderer was introduced. I loved the older 2015 renderer.

Even at that time the general sentiment was that users would probably switch entirely. Or just use Octane for LightWave (which is not wrong!).

Can´t see how post 2 and 3 validates this topic as being of nonsense.

Without an actual development team actively working on LightWave, the manual writer leaving/let go, support unresponsive towards both users and even studios, and Newtek entirely silent but for an obscure message and an 'update' with one bugfix that was obviously fixed just before the dev team disbanded, perhaps "wishful thinking" would be a more apt description?

Mind, reminiscing about the past and 'what could have been' - nothing wrong with that. In my nostalgic subjective view of the world Amiga still 'rulez'. I am still running Deluxe Paint IV in Amiga Forever for pixel art and opening older IFF files.

But realistically?

By the way, Newtek support sucks. I working with LW since Amiga times and now I really serious thinking about start work with Blender It's sad.

Change is always hard. But as the saying goes: if you stand still, you are left behind. LightWave has been standing still (for the most part) for over a decade now.

And Blender has its roots on the Amiga Ton Roosendaal began his 3D journey on the Amiga, but switched to a Silicon Graphics machine when it became clear the Amiga platform had no future left to it. Funnily enough he was inspired in part by Videoscape and Sculpt/Animate4D. So in a certain sense both LightWave and Blender share the same historic roots / influences.

And don't forget that other options exist: Cinema4D, for example. And today even 3DCoat introduced a traditional modeling room (which for some reason reminds me of Modeler:

 

[prometheus]

Without an actual development team actively working on LightWave, the manual writer leaving/let go, support unresponsive towards both users and even studios, and Newtek entirely silent but for an obscure message and an 'update' with one bugfix that was obviously fixed just before the dev team disbanded, perhaps "wishful thinking" would be a more apt description?

The topic isn´t nonsense for anyone to wish or hope for continued development and as such asking relevant questions or speculations around that, to gather user community feedback, what then transpires is a thing for the futuer weather or not it´s credible or not.
You could however argue that speculating in what will actually transpire mostly will reveal itself as nonsense, but that is a different matter.

 

[Rayek]

The topic isn´t nonsense for anyone to wish or hope for continued development and as such asking relevant questions or speculations around that, to gather user community feedback, what then transpires is a thing for the futuer weather or not it´s credible or not.
You could however argue that speculating in what will actually transpire mostly will reveal itself as nonsense, but that is a different matter.

I agree! That is why I rephrased it to "wishful thinking". It's certainly not nonsense. Everyone's hopes, wishes, and dreams for a continued development of LightWave are as real as anything.

What actually can be expected in reality? Based on events transpired it is extremely unlikely LightWave has a future. But still, even if this may be certain for 99.99%, since Newtek remains silent on the matter, I myself hold on to a 0.001% chance that the winds may turn in its favour.

The way I see it, LightWave has no future at NewVizrt. For LightWave to survive, it either needs to be open sourced or sold to a party that actually cares for its continued development - in whichever shape that might be.

It must change hands before anything else. I firmly believe this. Newtek/Vizrt are a coffin for LightWave.

 

[raymondtrace]

...how Keyshot performs now I really don´t know.

Have you considered the crazy idea of trying it before spending so much time speculating and typing?

The appeal to Jet (and myself, as a user of KeyShot too) is that you can quickly toss in an object, apply surfaces, and set HDR environment lighting in a couple minutes. You can even save a file to give to a client to see in a free player/viewer. But that's where the joy ends. Complex lighting and other advanced setups are not KeyShot's strength. For that reason, I do most of my work in LW. My company (while holding a floating license for many of us to use) would not dare advertise a position that requires knowledge of KeyShot. It would be like asking job applicants if they are familiar with MS Paint or Notepad.

 

[erikals]

Open Source will never happen.
LW code won't allow it.
Only CORE could potentially go Open Source.

 

[raymondtrace]

that is irrelevant, I could export to 3Ds object from Lightwave at the time around 2011 when I tried it, You don´t need any cad licensed software.
It´s a more compatible with..
Dxf export should also be possible within Lightwave, or blender...

3DS IS NOT CAD! I'm talking about Solidworks, Catia, etc... A software developer needs to license these proprietary formats for conversion.

Nobody in their right mind is still using DXF for CAD. The common/open interface today would be STEP format. I convert CAD data from Rhino, KeyShot, FreeCAD, or Blender (which has some STEP import support) into FBX/OBJ for LW.

(And the workflow isn't about exporting CAD from LW. KeyShot is not designed for CAD export. These are tools that artists use to ingest CAD data.)

 

[Planeguy]

No worries. There's no offense.

GPU rendering is available for free in LightWave with the Unreal Bridge. There's also the paid option of Octane. Blender can also interact with Unreal/Octane/ProRender/etc. All 3D apps have rendering options. Even Maya utilizes an external renderer like V-Ray.

Both native CPU and GPU (Nvidia only) denoising options are available in LightWave's render options panel. For optional OIDN, you can get the free plugin from Denis @ https://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/plugins/nodes/DP_Filter.html#OIDN

The great thing about Denis' plugin is that OIDN works on LW2015 - LW2020 (more versions than the native denoiser).

If you're familiar with Blender and you get better results, keep at it. There's no crime in using the tool you know and the tool that accomplishes a task.



Keyshot is kind of a dumb renderer with a narrow audience. It is not a useful market to compete within. There are increasingly more photoreal rendering options being offered to CAD designers within their native workspaces. Anyway, Adobe/Substance will likely kill off KeyShot (and the market of any other render-only tool).

Raymond, did I read this correctly? Can LW users render within LW using UB? Is this using the native unreal rendering engine or it works only through sending objects/scenes creatd in layout and sent to unreal. Sorry for the dumb question, I'm curious because I'd like to accelerate my renderings and I don't like Octane's everlasting license.

 

[prometheus]

3DS IS NOT CAD! I'm talking about Solidworks, Catia, etc... A software developer needs to license these proprietary formats for conversion.

Nobody in their right mind is still using DXF for CAD. The common/open interface today would be STEP format. I convert CAD data from Rhino, KeyShot, FreeCAD, or Blender (which has some STEP import support) into FBX/OBJ for LW.

(And the workflow isn't about exporting CAD from LW. KeyShot is not designed for CAD export. These are tools that artists use to ingest CAD data.)

RAYMONTRACE...I DIDN´T EVER STATE 3DS IS CAD..

That is your own interpretation based on what you yourself had a focus on, cad data and licensing which I don´t give a squat about.

when I was lookin at your first statements as it sounded as there was only options or required to use cad data..or as to quote you..
"You can tell the focus of an app from the interchange file formats. Proprietary CAD compatibility is not cheap to license."
who among those not using cad tools for design would bother about that?

I have gone autocad courses, and 3d max, so I am very well aware of the fileformats and the differences, I have worked with solidworks files and converting to Lightwave through deep exploration.

But as I said, I never said 3ds is cad Anywhere direcly or in a form that should be interpretated as anything else than just 3ds can import in to keyshot, thus you do not need dxf export out from lightwave even if you can choose that as well.

you said "KeyShot is not designed for CAD export"
Of course it´s not...why would you export from keyshot?

Those working with cad tools and having the license the formats for conversation, it´s their problem, but then again I do not see the problem for that either.
The point from my perspecitve, you don´t need CAD software or rely on CAD import only if you do product design in modo, lightwave, blender 3d max or many other apps then using keyshot to render.. the alternatives are there to import 3DS for example.

SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

 

[prometheus]

Have you considered the crazy idea of trying it before spending so much time speculating and typing?

The appeal to Jet (and myself, as a user of KeyShot too) is that you can quickly toss in an object, apply surfaces, and set HDR environment lighting in a couple minutes. You can even save a file to give to a client to see in a free player/viewer. But that's where the joy ends. Complex lighting and other advanced setups are not KeyShot's strength. For that reason, I do most of my work in LW. My company (while holding a floating license for many of us to use) would not dare advertise a position that requires knowledge of KeyShot. It would be like asking job applicants if they are familiar with MS Paint or Notepad.

Definitely not since it´s a crazy idea coming from you.

Why would I even try it when I know it worked and it should most likely work even better now, or are you sitting on information that the 3Ds format and dxf export isn´t valid anymore, why would I not give a slight hint speculating in that it probably is faster now than before?

Do you really think I should spend time on downloading and try it again when I am pretty sure I won´t even use it or have a use for it for the current being, just to satisfy your rules on what you should do before even speculating?

Drop your reference to what I should or not should speculate in and type, it has no relevance for the discussion apart from just trying to wind me up.

Who on earth mentioned the "workflow isn´t about exporting cad data from lw to keyshot"?
You must have heard your own voice echoing.

 

[Rayek]

Raymond, did I read this correctly? Can LW users render within LW using UB? Is this using the native unreal rendering engine or it works only through sending objects/scenes creatd in layout and sent to unreal. Sorry for the dumb question, I'm curious because I'd like to accelerate my renderings and I don't like Octane's everlasting license.

It's a bridge, sending objects/scenes to Unreal.

Unreal Bridge - LightWave 2019

docs.lightwave3d.com

Also, Unreal rendering is not the same as a GPU-enabled offline renderer like Cycles or Octane and requires a different approach/workflow.

 

[prometheus]

My company (while holding a floating license for many of us to use) would not dare advertise a position that requires knowledge of KeyShot. It would be like asking job applicants if they are familiar with MS Paint or Notepad.

All good then ...either you don´t dare nor care and dont put up ad, or you do dare as seen in those ad I posted screenshots on, where they explicitly ask for experience with keyshot, What you and your company think about job applicants skillsets, is probably not synonymous with what many other companies think about it.

 

[prometheus]

The way I see it, LightWave has no future at NewVizrt. For LightWave to survive, it either needs to be open sourced or sold to a party that actually cares for its continued development - in whichever shape that might be.

It must change hands before anything else. I firmly believe this. Newtek/Vizrt are a coffin for LightWave.

Agreed, I am afraid there are too many signs that isn´t looking good under current management, just my gut feeling on it.
Would be glad if I could be wrong about it though.

 

[raymondtrace]

...SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

I'm sure this is a communication problem afflicting both of us. However, the lengthy posts (in an inherently doomed discussion topic) make it very difficult to sort out what would need to be clarified.

You should really try a demo of KeyShot to realize how pointless it is for an employer to require experience with it. Spend just a couple hours with it and you'll become overqualified for all those open positions.

 

[prometheus]

I'm sure this is a communication problem afflicting both of us. However, the lengthy posts (in an inherently doomed discussion topic) make it very difficult to sort out what would need to be clarified.

You should really try a demo of KeyShot to realize how pointless it is for an employer to require experience with it. Spend just a couple hours with it and you'll become overqualified for all those open positions.

Yes, I would say we have some communication issues.

But I know how simple keyshot was to use, I have tried it, but I didn´t come from a complete oblivious backround of no 3D experience like perhaps others they look out for, but the ad´s are combined skillsets with other tools as well.

I still don´t agree that it would be pointless to ask for the experience, it´s not the same as required experience but could be offered as a merit if you already know it.

So I really don´t need to download a demo of it to understand it is simple to use, and fast..I just crossed my fingers on how much better it has become.
I am not in the business with product design currently, have no need for it currently and definitely not as a personal investment, and those ads are also requiring other software skills, keyshot was mentioned along with those other tools which of course
is a way you can approach it, if you think it would be silly to ask for just such requirements.

So no download of keyshot, I have my hands full with Lightwave ,blender, houdini and many other tools and more others to try as well..Unless I fullfill all requirements for a company with that extra notion of "it´s good if you know about keyshot"


What is your thoughts on Why these companies includes keyshot in their ads? would they be in danger of not being seen as serious, or get the wrong people for the job?
It´s probably likely they could attract a user very familiar with it..and that is not a negative no matter how easy it may be to use, as long as the applicant is versed in the other requirements as well of course.

Makes me wonder if lightwave is so easy to use that no company dares to enter a tag for it in their job ads, can hardly find any at all over here anyway.

 

[prometheus]

Anyway, Lighwave or newtek doesn´t need me in their focus or as an artists lurking for job ads anyway, but to hire development people and tag it properly on their career site...
It would be a start to a sign that they have a true intent at least.

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[Planeguy]

It's a bridge, sending objects/scenes to Unreal.

Unreal Bridge - LightWave 2019

docs.lightwave3d.com

Also, Unreal rendering is not the same as a GPU-enabled offline renderer like Cycles or Octane and requires a different approach/workflow.

Thanks rayek for the clarification, for a moment I had my hopes up!