Rigging Query

adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
Hi, I need some help with a rigging problem I have. In the object I'm rigging there are some joints where the pitch is not facing the way I would like. In the screenshot attached you can see on the right upper leg the pitch is slightly pointing to the right whereas on the left upper leg it's exactly where I want it. In Modeler I've tried using "Rotate Skelegons" and using this I can align the pitch to where I want it, or so it seems, but when I load the object into Layout nothing has changed.

I'm not using IK booster, just regular skelegons.

Am I missing a step or two or is it not possible to do what I'm after? I've attached the model with my bone object in case that's easier to see what I mean. I have this problem with every single thing I try to rig so it would be great if there was a way to manually re-adjust the alignment of skelegons.

BoyRigTest.jpg
 

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RPSchmidt

Active member
I'm not looking at Layout right now, but I can make a suggestion.

First, if they aren't off, turn your bones off.

My first try would be to use bone twist to change the orientation (under Modify > Orientation). That will rotate only the bone you want to adjust and not affect any children. That should let you set the bone the way you want it.

After I apply any change to bones, I usually also follow that with record bone rest position. If you don't, it may inadvertently set the bone back to its previous position... at least for me it has in the past.

You may also want to try Record pivot rotation.

Either way, make sure you use record bone rest position after making the change.

Hope this helps!
 

prometheus

REBORN
Check 6:15 in the clip from William Vaughan for info on how important it is to draw skelegons from scratch in the right window to determine the desired pitch.
Check it all from start if it all is interesting.

To fix the issue on this particular rig, just remove the bad skelegons in modeler back view on the right side from that view and mirror the ones that is working.
Weightmaps later on as well perhaps.


 
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adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
Thanks guys although bone twist doesn't seem to work with Skelegons even after they've been converted to bones (and bones turned off).

I'm wondering if the problem is arising when I use the move/drag tool to move the bone into its final position (in Modeler that is as I'm using Skelegons) but in the video he uses tip and bone move.
 
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Dodgy

Worms no more! Free fun!
Okay, Skelegons are completely separate from Bones in layout once they've been converted. Nothing you do will on one will be reflected in the other unless you delete the Bones in layout and then convert the Skelegons again. I do have a script called Update Bones on my website which will update an already set up rig in layout using the skelegons if you've made changes in modeler, however, so there is that.
There are bone tools in Layout for editing Bones, and skelegon tools in modeler for editing skelegons, but as I say, you would need something like my tool to update one from the other.
What I tended to do before I used my tool was convert the bones, then test the deformations before I started rigging to ensure they worked well. If I wasn't happy, I would go back to Modeler, move them, and then clear and reconvert them in layout and test again. Now I just set them up in modeler, convert, test then update in modeler and then Update Bones to see the effects ( I have a setup frame at 0 and bent legs at say frame 10 and Update bones does the update at 0 and then puts you back at frame 10 immediately).
 

adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
Got you. I think what I'll do is have a practice with actual bones rather than skelegons so I can see how they differ and get used to the workflow with them compared to skelegons.

As for skelegons I recreated the bottom half of my rig and even though I did exactly the same for each side, the right hand upper leg bone was rotated to the right as before. It's stuff like that drives me insane where there seems to be no logical explanation for what is happening. Ho-hum. Maybe I should record myself doing it and post the video here just in case I'm case I'm making a stupid newbie mistake that I'm not seeing.
 

Ma3rk

Curmudgeon in Training
Hey Adrian,
Took me awhile to track it down (still haven't found the Zip), but last year I came across this tut by Adam Gibson.


I didn't actually finish it as I got the info I needed which was largely learning how to use the bone tools within Layout, and on a project instead of trying understand the LW Docs.

The price might be considerably lower than posted; I got it for $5.
 

prometheus

REBORN
Got you. I think what I'll do is have a practice with actual bones rather than skelegons so I can see how they differ and get used to the workflow with them compared to skelegons.

As for skelegons I recreated the bottom half of my rig and even though I did exactly the same for each side, the right hand upper leg bone was rotated to the right as before. It's stuff like that drives me insane where there seems to be no logical explanation for what is happening. Ho-hum. Maybe I should record myself doing it and post the video here just in case I'm case I'm making a stupid newbie mistake that I'm not seeing.

I just deleted the right leg skelegons, selected the left skelegons and mirror x them, once in layout they all just worked fine.
there is no need to draw skelegons twice in different views, you could avoid the alignment issue maybe if you just work on one side at the time, then mirror them.

In Layout, bones are not as "sensitive" with how you create them as they are in modeler I think.

read up on skelegons in the docs...

I´m making a little image guide to show how the angle controls changes, depending on if you start to add the skelegon in top view, right view and the back view.
the heading angle will be the same at zero for all three bones once converted in layout, while pitch and bank will be 90 degree plus for the one started in top view but finished in back view, while the one drawn started in back view will be pitch plus 90, but bank -90, and the one drawn started in the right view will be pitch +90 and bank a value at 0.

Don´t have time to post that image guide now though, later.
 

adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
Thanks Prometheus, I look forward to seeing your guide. My Skelegons are particularly messed up in the fingers of the character probably because the angle of the character's arms are at an angle (it was a free model I downloaded) but I can at least get the movement that I need from it. I'm reading up on them now.

Thanks Ma3rk for the link to the tut, looks definately worth a look and sounds like you found it useful.
 

Dodgy

Worms no more! Free fun!
Thanks Prometheus, I look forward to seeing your guide. My Skelegons are particularly messed up in the fingers of the character probably because the angle of the character's arms are at an angle (it was a free model I downloaded) but I can at least get the movement that I need from it. I'm reading up on them now.

Thanks Ma3rk for the link to the tut, looks definately worth a look and sounds like you found it useful.
If I were you, I would download this Zip and install the Skelegon editor that is inside it. With it you can align your skelegons to a particular axis with ease, as well as do other useful stuff like batch rename them, mirror them etc. I mostly use it for the bank alignment as it makes it much easier. Just remember, when you convert them in layout, Record the pivot rotation, as this will align them to the banks set in modeler, and then rest them to unmangle your mesh. It sounds complicated, but it's not once you've done it once. That will ensure your bones all rotate as you expect.
 

Ma3rk

Curmudgeon in Training
Since you're dabbling with bones, I was going to suggest getting Rebel Hill's Animation Toolboxes. They were free in the Rigghit Demo, but his site is gone. Perhaps someone has a WayBack machine link or has that demo zip. I might on an external drive; I'll look a bit later.

There are some slick things that LW should have had natively, but doesn't. One of those is setting pivot rotations for the whole rig or selected bones at one time rather than individually.
 

Ma3rk

Curmudgeon in Training
Oooo. Look what I found last night while looking for something else. The file name says RHiggitFreeV206 but it's just the Toolboxes. This file was from his site when it was up & he had posted it.

EVERYONE should snag this.
 

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adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
Downloaded it, thanks for sharing! Hopefully how they all work will be fairly self explanatory, at least for a rigging newbie :)
 

Ma3rk

Curmudgeon in Training
Look on YT, think there are some basics. I'll try to fill in where/if I can.

As I mentioned somewhere, RH's tools got maimed a bit with 2019, then pretty much killed with 2020. If need be, you could still use them in an earlier version & then do an Import from scene into 2020 if you had too. Frankly, I don't think 2020 offers enough advantage over 2019 to deal with it's fickleness in other areas.

There are some aspects of the Toolboxes that aren't particularly intuitive. The selection choices are key in many ways I guess. Copying something, no matter what is enabled, will copy all aspects; Pasting is where, enabling only Rotations for example, is where it becomes powerful. Still confuses me sometimes.

Also the Curves panel has some nice features. I create Pose exported from Daz then use the Toolboxes to Copy & paste to the frame desired. Doesn't always go as planned so the Fixing Holds & Euler correction are particularly slick.

Remember to Save after each step just-in-case. One of the things broken on LW's side. Also, Save & Load of poses in the Toolboxes was broken. However, if you have a file with with a full hierarchical pose as mentioned above, just use Load from Scene, choose that & then it's easy to copy & paste to any keyframe of your character.

With your own figure, you could easily work on & store poses in the negative keyframe zone, then copy & paste as needed.

I've used his RHiggit tools to completely re-do a figure, and might do a conversion on some of the others later so I can get IK, but mostly I use just the Toolbox these days in the process of converting characters and such out of Daz via a combination of OBJ and FBX. Downside is I can't create an IK rig, only FK. For what I'm needing though that's perfectly fine; not planning to render animation or at least just very short segments as in an animagraphic. I can easily pose & create enough movement for motion blur; one of the things that can't be done in Daz along with lighting control & choices. But dang if they don't have some other tools not available to the public.
 

adrian

Audere-Est-Facere
In terms of versions of LW I should be fine then as I use a combination of 11.6.3 and 2018 :)

I just found this link:
 
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Ma3rk

Curmudgeon in Training
Ya know? I don't think I've seen that particular vid on using the toolbox. There's info on working with the FBX format that I've not seen, & I have his commercial vids.
 

quakebox

Member
Seems like a Gimbal Lock simply select the bone then hit Shift+P.

If the rig broke don't worry select the bone then hit r.

I have to download your rig then give you an update.


Update:
Yes as I expected it's a Gimbal Lock simply do the following:

  1. Select the bone then hit Shift+P
  2. Select the bone again and hit r
Here is the hip bone fixed

Capture.PNG


To align the (Pitch) of your shoulder and arm bones do the following:
  1. Make sure the Coordinate System is Parent (Shift+F6).
  2. Select parent bone then hit Shift+P
  3. Press r
  4. Go to Setup > Modify > Orientation > Align Pitch
  5. In case a bone won't correct itself with Align Pitch tool use Bone Twist tool (Ctrl+K) after twisting the bone (Press Space).
NOTE: Sometimes you need to Twist bones manually one by one using Bone Twist tool if the Align Pitch tool messes things up.

Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG
 
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