Rearrange points order in LW modeler?

Kilusonak

New member
Hello Gang,

Today I discovered one thing which I don't have an answer to, and digging this forum or internet spaces wasn't successful, so I'm asking here.

Today I tried to build a profile to Rail Bevel it from a set of points taken from some other model. I copied the points made a curve and tried to Rail Bevel a poly to this points profile and it was a mess, not even close to the desired shape. Confused at first it took me about an hour to understand that Rail Bevel calculates the shape not from actual curve or spline, it takes in account actual points and their order. You don't even need to make a curve/spline, the set of points is what Rail Bevel uses.

So, when you make a spline/curve yourself, you get perfect points order, #1 followed by #2 and so on. But it is not like that with the points copied from somewhere. If it's not clear what I mean, please see the screenshot. #1 followed by #14 then #16, #13 and only then #2. This order makes impossible to use Rail Bevel.

So, the question is: Is there a tool/trick/plugin/workaround that allows to rearrange points order, so they would follow each other in some common way #1 by #2 and so on?

Thank you,

P. S. This also applies for lasso selections. For example, by lasso select something that looks like circle of points and hitting "p" for creating a poly wouldn't always result in expected poly shape if points are not in order.
 

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Shabazzy

LightWave Fan Boi
I would probably try Detail Tab>Points>Swap points.

I'd select the points I want to swap two at a time, starting with 14 and 2, then 16 and 3 and so on.
 

Kilusonak

New member
I would probably try Detail Tab>Points>Swap points.

I'd select the points I want to swap two at a time, starting with 14 and 2, then 16 and 3 and so on.
Well, ok. Thanks for the input. But imagine there are 250 points to swap? I found that cut and paste them one by one on new layer does exactly what I need. Being pasted on new layer they arranged by incoming order. This method even faster than swapping since you do not waste time on finding pairs. But again, this time it is 20 points but if there is 200? There is must be less time consuming and more automatic method.

At least I hope so.
 

Shabazzy

LightWave Fan Boi
I see your point, but I have to wonder if this is a limitation of LightWave problem or a really bad technique problem.

You're effectively asking for a tool that will take a number of points in 3D space and to automatically "just know" what order you want them to be in (in 3D space) and re-order them?

I couldn't even begin to figure out how to go about programming something like that.

No, I'd say that copying vertices from another model and trying to use them as a profile for Rail Bevel is not the best approach to take. It's far easier to use the model's vertices as a template for placement of new points in another layer.

To get the positions to match exactly after placement, you could use the Snap Drag tool,
 

Kilusonak

New member
Since when copying points/polygons/parts from one model/layer to another became bad technique? Are there some restrictions for that? Let's say I have some profile that I need to replicate in new project. So, of course I use what I've already made to save time or use what someone else did before me. Placing vertices on template is much more time consuming than what I'm trying to find. In this case copying them one by one even faster, talking of bad techniques.

It is clearly a problem of Lightwave, I would definitely call it an "unexpected" behavior. How else I should say If I have a curve profile but resulting shape is anything but this profile? This is weird at least from user experience point, since curve have it's start point and end point and shape that you see on your screen. But this shape is not how Lightwave's engine see it. LW should check for the spline/curve flow and direction, not for the points ID's, because point ID's are not what you take in account when modeling and this is not what you control in the package. This is real example and real situation, so at least this task might appear for other users at least. I'm trying to find if there is solution or workaround I just might not know that it's exists.

If you turn the wheel left and your car turns right is it the car's limitations or problems or bad driving technique?

As for programming such feature, you're really overcomplicating that. Obvious solution is to rearrange them by curve flow. You create a curve and you shouldn't even care about point ID's. LW should rearrange them from beginning to end. If you need backward order, there is curve flip option. That will cover 99% of cases. Another solution is to rearrange them by axis, that will cover 1% of some exotic cases. Simple like that. I bet Rail Bevel supposed to work like that originally.
 

Kilusonak

New member
He-he, seems as this one is really an ancient stuff. At least original plugin page is not exists anymore. I wonder if it will work with new LW engine since it was written some 10 years ago.
 

Shabazzy

LightWave Fan Boi
Since when copying points/polygons/parts from one model/layer to another became bad technique? Are there some restrictions for that?
I'm not saying that copying points/polygons/parts from one model/layer to another in itself is a bad technique. What I am saying is if you are using a tool that requires you to control the point order before you use the tool, but for some reason you think its a better idea to ignore that rule and do things your way, I can't see how on Earth that the tool is the problem when you don't get the results you expect.

It's like your car user manual tells you to use the steering wheel to navigate the direction of the vehicle but you must do so by turning it clockwise and anti-clockwise in a banking direction with your hands and arms. But you say, "Nuts to that. I'm going to operate it with this chicken feather by pusing on the wheel with it". Then saying the car is at fault because it's not giving you the results you expect.
Let's say I have some profile that I need to replicate in new project. So, of course I use what I've already made to save time or use what someone else did before me. Placing vertices on template is much more time consuming than what I'm trying to find. In this case copying them one by one even faster, talking of bad techniques.
To be honest, both our techniques are a waste of time if you insist on using the rail bevel tool incorrectly.

It is clearly a problem of Lightwave, I would definitely call it an "unexpected" behavior. How else I should say If I have a curve profile but resulting shape is anything but this profile? This is weird at least from user experience point, since curve have it's start point and end point and shape that you see on your screen. But this shape is not how Lightwave's engine see it. LW should check for the spline/curve flow and direction, not for the points ID's, because point ID's are not what you take in account when modeling and this is not what you control in the package.
Not a math guy huh?

...Obvious solution is to rearrange them by curve flow. You create a curve and you shouldn't even care about point ID's. LW should rearrange them from beginning to end. If you need backward order, there is curve flip option. That will cover 99% of cases. Another solution is to rearrange them by axis, that will cover 1% of some exotic cases. Simple like that. I bet Rail Bevel supposed to work like that originally.
Yeah, I guess that could work. I hadn't thought of that method.
 
Today I tried to build a profile to Rail Bevel it from a set of points taken from some other model. I copied the points made a curve and tried to Rail Bevel a poly to this points profile and it was a mess, not even close to the desired shape. Confused at first it took me about an hour to understand that Rail Bevel calculates the shape not from actual curve or spline, it takes in account actual points and their order. You don't even need to make a curve/spline, the set of points is what Rail Bevel uses.

Strange, for me Rail Bevel also works with splines that have a wrong point order. To be clear: The spline forms the desired profile but the order of the points is messed up.
If I have only points (without a spline) in the background, Rail Bevel does not work for me at all.

Note that the profile must be oriented in the Y direction no matter which direction the bevel will be made.

Rail_Bevel_02.jpg


Rail_Bevel_03.jpg


Rail_Bevel_01.jpg



For the MeshReknitter thing: To change the point order of a spline using MeshReknitter, you must first create polygons from it. To do this, you must create a 2 point polychain from the spline. Extrude the edges so that you get 4 point polygons. Use MeshReknitter to correct the point order. Then delete the excess points, the rest is now ordered.

But I think you don't need to do that. Select the points in the order you want them and then make the spline. Align it parallel to the Y axis. Done.

ciao
Thomas
 

slacer

Active member
Hello Gang,

Today I discovered one thing which I don't have an answer to, and digging this forum or internet spaces wasn't successful, so I'm asking here.

Today I tried to build a profile to Rail Bevel it from a set of points taken from some other model. I copied the points made a curve and tried to Rail Bevel a poly to this points profile and it was a mess, not even close to the desired shape. Confused at first it took me about an hour to understand that Rail Bevel calculates the shape not from actual curve or spline, it takes in account actual points and their order.
According to the release notes for LW 2020 there was a fix related to Rail Bevel:

From the release notes for LW 2020:
Fixed RailBevel using implicit point order, now traverses background curve correctly.

What version do you use?
Maybe the problem is still present in your version.
 
According to the release notes for LW 2020 there was a fix related to Rail Bevel:

From the release notes for LW 2020:


What version do you use?
Maybe the problem is still present in your version.

I think you are on the right approach. I did an other test it in LW 2019.0.3 and it did not work. My previous tests were in LW 2020.0.2.

ciao
Thomas
 
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