NDI and 10G

oliver8315

New member
Hello,

I have come across some Problems regarding the use of 10Gbit/s Ethernet Cards on varoius PCs. I`m using a PC to generate an NDI stream (either via Vmix or VLC). The PC is Connected to a Netgear 4250 A/V Switch wich is set to the NDI Profile (Tried NDI 4 and NDI 5 Settings). Then I have to different NDI to HDMI Output Converters (1x Magwell NDI to HDMI, 1x Birddog Flex Out) both of them have the newes Firmware installed.
So here is the Problem - when I am using a 10G Card i get Framedrops on both of the NDI to HDMIConverters. The curoius thing is that everything works fine when set to 1G.
The magewell has a QoS section which shows the Video jitter and Framedrops. When the Link speed is set to 1G in the configuration of the Ethernet Card all is good - the video jitter is between 8 and 15 ms and the are no frame drops. When set to auto negotiate or 10G the jitter is between 30 and 60 ms and after a while jumping up to 100ms and producing Framedrops.
I have tried severel diffrent Ethernet Cards (Asus, AQC107, an SFP+ with severel diffrent Modules (From netgear, 6com, Allnet etc.) but every setup produces the same Problem which leads me to beleave its a windows Problem. I also triede a lot of different settings - Jumbo Frames On/Off, Flow Control On/Off disabeling all Engery saving parameter etc.
Does any body have any suggetions or experience with this?

Kind Regards
Oliver
 

Attachments

  • Aufbau.pdf
    250.1 KB · Views: 80
I read somewhere that someone was having issues with Mikrotik 10Gb to 1Gb switches not having enough buffer in them to cache between 1Gb and 10Gb. Perhaps the M4250 has a similar issue. I agree with pabloquintana, though: try a Mac and isolate the issue to being operating system or not operating system.
 

Ras72

New member
We use switches from different manufacturers, so I cannot speak to your specific setup, but can you disable QoS in Netgear A/V switch as a simple test?
 

oliver8315

New member
Would you be able to narrow down the problem and discard or confirm Windows by using a mac with a 10 Gb/s port?
Thank you for the suggstions. As of now i dont have access to a MAC with an 10GB/s port.
I read somewhere that someone was having issues with Mikrotik 10Gb to 1Gb switches not having enough buffer in them to cache between 1Gb and 10Gb. Perhaps the M4250 has a similar issue. I agree with pabloquintana, though: try a Mac and isolate the issue to being operating system or not operating system.
Also a very interesting thank you but I can´t find this specification anywhere and even If i did how much cache would be enough? Netgear support did not seem to think that this could be a Problem.
We use switches from different manufacturers, so I cannot speak to your specific setup, but can you disable QoS in Netgear A/V switch as a simple test?
I´ll tried a few things in the QoS settings but there is no simple disabling QoS all together. And the main reason for getting the Netgear switches was that they have all of these NDI Profiles built in. Might I ask what switches you are using?
 
Thank you for the suggstions. As of now i dont have access to a MAC with an 10GB/s port.

Also a very interesting thank you but I can´t find this specification anywhere and even If i did how much cache would be enough? Netgear support did not seem to think that this could be a Problem.

I´ll tried a few things in the QoS settings but there is no simple disabling QoS all together. And the main reason for getting the Netgear switches was that they have all of these NDI Profiles built in. Might I ask what switches you are using?
I replicated your test with Mac. Using an M4250 switch and 1Gb and 10Gb NICs. I was unable to see that magnitude of jitter using Sienna NDI Signal Generator on Mac with 1Gb or 10Gb interfaces going to the M4250 and Magewell ProConvert decoder.

The only time jitter went up to 100ms was when I was playing a clip in Final Cut Pro and outputting with the Final Cut Pro NDI output plug-in. When the video clip on the timeline reached the end, and looped from the beginning of the timeline, the jitter went up to 100ms momentarily. This happened on both the 1Gb and 10Gb NICs. Otherwise, no issues with jitter of that magnitude when using Sienna NDI Signal Generator on Mac, in unicast TCP mode, or a Birddog PF120 camera or a Birddog Mini encoder, both in multicast UDP mode, going to the Magewell ProConvert, on an M4250 switch.

So, to me, that rules out the Mac or the Birddog’s in general.

Worth noting: I did see this amount of jitter present on a Unifi 24-port switch, in 1Gb and 10Gb, and only when sending a 4K60 NDI stream from Sienna NDI Signal Generator on the Mac and resolving that issue required me to increase the buffer on the ProConvert decoder up to 120ms.

But, no issues like that were observed on the Netgear M4250, with a proper NDI profile selected. Even in 4K60. I left the buffer on the ProConvert at 20ms when using the M4250.

So, in conclusion, I agree: something must be wrong with Windows to be causing this issue on your system. I note the following thread with additional suggestions that may be relevant to your situation:

“-Disable IPv6 in the NIC properties
-Disable Downshift retries
-Disable Recv Segment Coalescing (IPV4)
-Disable Recv Segment Coalescing (IPV6)
-Ensure Energy Efficient Ethernet is disabled.”

see here:
https://forums.newtek.com/threads/tc2-10-gig-vs-1-gig-port.164656/
 

Artem A.

New member
Hi everybody.
The same problems as the oliver8315.
Win 10 Pro - Intel X550-T2 - Cisco SX350X-24 - Magwell Pro Convert.
The same effect if the signal is sent to the computer instead of Magwell.
QoS is disabled on Cisco.
 
Hi everybody.
The same problems as the oliver8315.
Win 10 Pro - Intel X550-T2 - Cisco SX350X-24 - Magwell Pro Convert.
The same effect if the signal is sent to the computer instead of Magwell.
QoS is disabled on Cisco.
Is there new firmware available for the NIC? At a certain point, I’d be inclined to say that the only 10Gb NIC that works well with NDI on Windows is the exact one NewTek uses in the TriCaster product lines. Because none of these others appear to work correctly. Just an intuition.
 
Check out this video by Dr. Andrew Cross, of NewTek, discussing the challenges of using TCP NDI connections between 1Gb and 10Gb networks and how the conversion between network speeds is a “very hard problem.”

The solution? Use RUDP sending. Easier said than done, of course, since few, if any, NDI 5 hardware sources actually exist right now. Hope this helps!

Watch the video starting around 2:25. Enjoy!

 

Gomi

New member
We are having the same problem. Our setup is mainly a strong media server which provides 13x NDI streams thru Netgear M4300 series 10G port. NDI-HDMI converters are Deltacast N2H v2 receiving 1920x1200x60 streams.

Our problem comes with 10G NICs (tested several ones on 2 different windows pro machines) when we plug them into 10G port on the switch does not matter if we have standalone switch or full network topology, we always get same trouble on receivers ports, packages drop when monitoring them (causing frame drops and extreme 2s lags visible time to time).

Still if we do plug 10G NIC to 1G port on switch or if we use just 1G NIC the problem disappears...but we need higher bandwidth to handle full setup.

Another interesting fact as I've been following the post, we did not test it yet on Mac OS environment but if we replace the NDI receiver by a windows simple computer with integrated 1G NIC and studio monitor, packages don't drop on switch side and problem seem to be solved. So we though network cards on receiver might be the issue on top of windows system compatibility.

Then ,we tried as well with Birdog, Magwell and Deltacast N2H v1 receivers without any improvement rather than verifying the one dropping slightly less packages is N2H v2.

Tested always with SW Touch designer and VMIX, no difference. Also if does not affect how many NDI receivers we plug, issue is always happening. Jumbo frames and flow control disabled as well. We use NDI 4.6 on receivers and 4.6.1 on SW side, tried beta with NDI 5 on sw no improvement. Any idea where the problem can be? Version of Windows where someone made this working properly?

QoS is optimized for Dante and it seems to not conflict with NDI despite the configuration we apply.

All below NIC parameters set as recommended:

“-Disable IPv6 in the NIC properties
-Disable Downshift retries
-Disable Recv Segment Coalescing (IPV4)
-Disable Recv Segment Coalescing (IPV6)
-Ensure Energy Efficient Ethernet is disabled.”

The media server counts with 3 NIC (all updated to latest drivers)

10G LAN: Single LAN via Marvell AQC113C 10Gb controller
1GbE LAN: Single LAN via via Intel® i210AT controller (shared with IPMI)
10G LAN - PCI extra AOC-STG-I2T

Only work around we find out so far is to use 4x 1G port card splitting streams thru different Vlans , so far no drops or missed packages...
 

Artem A.

New member
Multicast is also an interesting thing.
The speed of the receiver adapter is 10G - the image is there.
I don't change anything in the settings, just set the speed to 1G and there is no image.
I change it back - the image appears.
What am I doing wrong?
 
Multicast is also an interesting thing.
The speed of the receiver adapter is 10G - the image is there.
I don't change anything in the settings, just set the speed to 1G and there is no image.
I change it back - the image appears.
What am I doing wrong?
What are you doing wrong? You’re putting it on 1G. If it works fine at 10G, use 10G!
 

Artem A.

New member
You’re putting it on 1G. If it works fine at 10G, use 10G!
Firstly, I would like to know the reason for all these problems with changing the adapter speed between 1G and 10G.
Secondly, on 10G, as already mentioned here, there is a big jitter.
And it turns out that it is impossible to fully use NDI in any of the modes.
 
Firstly, I would like to know the reason for all these problems with changing the adapter speed between 1G and 10G.
Secondly, on 10G, as already mentioned here, there is a big jitter.
And it turns out that it is impossible to fully use NDI in any of the modes.
I suspect the answers to your questions are trade secrets of Vizrt and that Vizrt and NewTek products do not have those issues. Best of luck.
 

kanep

NewTek SE
I'm a bit last into this and there appears to be multiple conversions weaved together.

It sounds like multicast 10G works (with jitter) but 1G does not. My first question, does unicast work? You have to start with unicast, if that isn't working, don't even go multicast yet.
 

Artem A.

New member
Hello Kane.
I am very glad that someone from NewTek joined the discussion of the problem.
I wrote about multicast in order to show that there are several problems with NDI in 10G. But let's forget about multicast for now.
In unicast - with a 1G adapter speed, stream is stable. When switching the adapter speed to 10G, the jitter increases significantly.
Win 10 Pro - Intel X550-T2 - Cisco SX350X-24, clean installation, fresh firmware and adapter drivers.
IPv6 disabled, RSC disabled, EEEE disabled.
I haven't found a solution to the problem yet.
 

Artem A.

New member
Hi everybody. After disabling Windows Defender, the jitter became the same for both 1G and 10G - 10-12 ms. (i.e. decreased by more than ten times).
But if i disable and re-enable the NIC, jitter increasing to 100 ms and more. After the reboot, everything comes back to normal. But restarting the computer every time I changed the adapter settings is not the best solution.
 
Last edited:

alexsalmona

New member
We are having this same problem here...

We have 6 Tricaster Elite 2 systems and all of them have the same issue. Using a Magewell decoder and looking at the jitter reported on its web page, we are constantly seeing 100ms of jitter for both audio and video (seems like this is the max it will report even if its higher). Visually the video is jittery on screen and does not play smoothly.

As a test we also have an NC2 that we connected to the same switch (Cisco Nexus 9000 series) using an Atto Fiber 10gb card and the same source (not going through the Tricaster) has jitter down in the 3-5ms range and plays on screen buttery smooth. The signal path for completeness is: (NC2 Direct) SDI -> NC2 -> NDI -> Magewell and (Tricaster in the middle) SDI -> NC2 -> NDI -> Tricaster -> NDI -> Magewell.

So far I'm not sure what is causing this but it seems like its something to do with either the fiber nic vs copper nic latency or maybe there is something strange with the Aquantia controller inside the Tricasters? I followed Kane's post above about installing the latest drivers and disabling things on the driver and it made no difference.

Attached is what we are seeing. Hopefully someone has already figured this one out?
 

Attachments

  • NC2 Output Low Jitter.PNG
    NC2 Output Low Jitter.PNG
    76.2 KB · Views: 57
  • Tricaster Output High Jitter.PNG
    Tricaster Output High Jitter.PNG
    73.5 KB · Views: 54
Top Bottom