LIGHTWAVE CONTEST and "THAT" STIGMA

bryguy

Banned
I was being very generous!
still not convinced that Cores end wont come before its begining?

I do look forward to what core may offer at some point, but there is a whole lot that needs to be delt with.
volumetrics
CA tools
dynamics
workflows
the list goes on and on!
If we want all these to be QUALITY features... That 3/4 years is very generous! Especialy seeing the progression that the dev has shown up till this point...
 

Surrealist.

Active member
And the track record of releasing features that actually work.

But what bothers me most is the development team being off on their estimates. Maybe that is because they were left with a code they were not familiar with and it took all this time to finally understand why the Modo team wanted to started over. It is my general understanding basically that that was the rift. That the original developers wanted to start over and management was not willing to do that. So there was a split. That may be over simplified, and may not even be exactly what happened, but the point is, Newtek is now back where they would have been able to start 4 years ago or more if they had instead done what the Modo team has been doing now ever since even if only because they had no other choice due to the split.

I think that the current developers feel that they can sell the idea that they are familiar with this code and can make it do the things they want. I think they will. But at the same time, they lost my vote in a big way on this last 9.5/9.6 cycle and it is going to take some serious change in the way they do things to win me back into the fold as a user. That would not stop me from investing the cash on Core now though if I had it, just so see. I think it would be worth it.
 

bryguy2

Banned
yep...
Not only are we back where we started, but now with a much less talented develoment team...IMO.

I want to know how NT is going to bridge a 4 year gap with modo? Their not!
 

SplineGod

New member
And the track record of releasing features that actually work.

But what bothers me most is the development team being off on their estimates. Maybe that is because they were left with a code they were not familiar with and it took all this time to finally understand why the Modo team wanted to started over. It is my general understanding basically that that was the rift. That the original developers wanted to start over and management was not willing to do that. So there was a split. That may be over simplified, and may not even be exactly what happened, but the point is, Newtek is now back where they would have been able to start 4 years ago or more if they had instead done what the Modo team has been doing now ever since even if only because they had no other choice due to the split.

I think that the current developers feel that they can sell the idea that they are familiar with this code and can make it do the things they want. I think they will. But at the same time, they lost my vote in a big way on this last 9.5/9.6 cycle and it is going to take some serious change in the way they do things to win me back into the fold as a user. That would not stop me from investing the cash on Core now though if I had it, just so see. I think it would be worth it.

The whole modo story is alot more then simply wanting to start over. Reallly isnt worth getting into again here. :)

What I do have a problem with is the idea that this is a new dev team with unfamiliar code etc. Theyve had a new team since LW8 which is how many years ago?
How long does it take to get up to speed witih the code?
I can see this excuse being valid a few years ago.
It seems that when this new dev team took over t hat nobody bothered to go thru and give the code a good inventory to see exactly what state it was in. Maybe it cost too much or whatever...who knows?

It just seems strange to me that after all this time that certain promised features didnt materialize and then blamed on the old bad code. Again thats possible but I dont understand why it takes that much time to figure that out.

Then theres the whole changing over brick by brick thing. Again, fine but then now it turns into were developing the next version of LW from scratch. Again, fine but the whole way its been handled feels very seat of the pants rather then a structured, organized approach. My guess is that they need an influx of cash.
All of this I understand and like others I threw money their way to get into Hardcore.

Im finding myself becoming more critical of the way they do things because over the many years Ive used and supported LW its bit me several times and I would have hoped by now that NT would have figured this all out beforehand.

My take on all of this is that software unlike animal species dont go extinct. It can appear to die off or flatline for awhile then come back. XSI did this and hopefull LW will as well. If not then I have the time to explore other options which is never a bad idea anyway. :)
 

Surrealist.

Active member
Yeah I was sort of aware there was more to the story and I forget some of the details I have been told, agree, no point in going into it.

But this notion of the code, I don't know man. I don't know. It is way out of my league to get into. All I can do is theorize from the armchair.

Aside from the details, I only know I was growing more and more unhappy with things and I simply had to make a move so I did. If Core comes around and they can prove that they are able to design and implement tools that actually work, I'll be happy. But I will have to see it. I agree, they do seem to be just flying along. But I am not there. I don't know.
 

SplineGod

New member
I agree...and it doesnt matter if theyre flying along or not because perception is everything. This is the perception theyve encouraged and frankly most ppl I know and/or work with who use LW tend to feel the same way. Its up to Newtek to change that perception or more of the experienced users will continue to leave which IMO will start forcing LW more into the hobbyist application corner then the pro app corner
 

bryguy2

Banned
Thats why I am surprised they are taking the tight lipped approach. They only have a few pros left that are still diehards... and I see them complaining all the time in the forums about the situation...you included.

I really feel that honesty and complete disclosure about their situation will benefit them much more... But what do I know?

to me it seems that pulling the same old crap with the same people over and over is a bad move for them!

You are right... all that will be left is hobbyists! The professionals will move on to companies that have their **** in order...

Say what you will about AD, but you know what you are getting when you buy one of their products. The same definitely cant be said for NT!
 

SplineGod

New member
Like I said earlier. The advantage is to the consumer. Theres alot of choices out there now ranging from free to expensive. With the economy the way it is nobody can afford to alienate or lose customers. Im seeing some pretty amazing products coming out of of very small teams such as 3dcoat, Silo and others.
I continue to use LW because I know it very well. The more Im forced to use other apps the less Ill use LW unless I really see some compelling reasons to contiinue with it. Its quite possible that Newtek will pull something impressive out of a hat with Core and woo some people back to using it again. If Core diverges too far from what made LW what it is and too much like other apps then people wont really have a reason to use it vs something else that does that same thing AND already has a long track record of use in the industry.
Based on NTs marketing efforts in the past I see them continuing to rely on the end users to drive and push it into studios rather then something that marketing is doing. If less and less people on the professional level use core then NT will have lost a major avenue into many studios. Core is not a continuation of LW but something different. To keep it attractive to current LW users it needs to still feel like LW yet have less restrictions and more depth then the current version.
Im not real interested then all the tech sheets about Core simply because ATM its all words. The proof as always is in the pudding. :)
 

bryguy2

Banned
I feel you about wanting core it to be the LW that you want it to be and know! I feel the same way...

I do beleive if done right core can be the best of all worlds. It is all up to NT...and thats what scares me!:)
 

jasonwestmas

Adapting Artist
Like I said earlier. The advantage is to the consumer. Theres alot of choices out there now ranging from free to expensive. With the economy the way it is nobody can afford to alienate or lose customers. Im seeing some pretty amazing products coming out of of very small teams such as 3dcoat, Silo and others.
I continue to use LW because I know it very well. The more Im forced to use other apps the less Ill use LW unless I really see some compelling reasons to contiinue with it. Its quite possible that Newtek will pull something impressive out of a hat with Core and woo some people back to using it again. If Core diverges too far from what made LW what it is and too much like other apps then people wont really have a reason to use it vs something else that does that same thing AND already has a long track record of use in the industry.
Based on NTs marketing efforts in the past I see them continuing to rely on the end users to drive and push it into studios rather then something that marketing is doing. If less and less people on the professional level use core then NT will have lost a major avenue into many studios. Core is not a continuation of LW but something different. To keep it attractive to current LW users it needs to still feel like LW yet have less restrictions and more depth then the current version.
Im not real interested then all the tech sheets about Core simply because ATM its all words. The proof as always is in the pudding. :)

Everything you said is related for sure. I think the competition to get Core into the studios is going to be tougher in the near future. There was a time when Package "X" had feature "a" and Package "Y" did not but had feature "b" instead. Then companies got to the point where Package "X" and "Y" both have the same features but "X" had better quality in feature "a" than "Y" did. These days it's more like Package "X" and "Y" have both features "a" and "b" but package "Y" can do it faster or cheaper at a similar quality. Eventually we will get to a point where all the Packages have a similar punch and someone will have to play smarter and more innovative in a systematic and/or intuitive function and play that up to the appropriate audience. Houdini mostly aimed at Tech-Artists for example. Z-Brush is definitely aimed at the intuitive sculptor who doesn't want to meddle with nodes and scripts. Lightwave Core seems to be aiming in between those two worlds but it would be nice to know for sure from NT what they are planning. I think this direction, as vague as it may be, is good for designing around fast project turnarounds as well as more advanced hyper-real FX projects; The accessibility to CORE in which to allow advanced high-end projects for film and games Also to include the accessibility for your average artist to pickup quickly, would be a good thing to shoot for. I really don't know if NT is up to that task, should be interesting.
 
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Julez4001

Member
My little thread is still kicking.


:D




Something Larry said earlier.
Its up to Newtek to alter the preception. (mind you they've started but like the wacky demo, it gets pulled down)
Wih Core looking like "Modo 101 - lite"?
Its going to take them a lot longer than they are letting on.

MODO is at 401 soon and its becoming mor eof a solid app in each revision
but they don't have the character tools or the hypervoxels-like thingymabob .... sure Core can just include HV 3.0 in it at the end of the year but man that code is what 10 years+ .


I am in no rush to get Core but alas I am not in a rush to throw 9.6 out the door either.
 
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djlithium

Active member
One thing NT marketing needs to do is let US (us users) do some work for them - we know why other people think LW is a joke and we know how to convince them otherwise.
The other part is there needs to me more user profiles up and rotating on a regular basis (like 2 - 3 a week) Not one or two every 4 or 6 months.
It should also be made easier to submit content directly to NT via the web, not mailing in on DVD(you want to show that kick *** 4K plate vfx shot on DVD? - unless they are talking just files I guess which I think is the case but I love how they also ask for stuff on betacam, like come on.. how many animation studios do you know have betacam sp decks? that NT's video marketing department infecting the marketing of a different division's marketing logic) to someone who isn't in San Antonio where newtek lives. A full "agree to by clicking this button" fill out form giving NT the permission to show the work, with a credits form area to credit the people who worked on it and a way to resume uploads for big stuff. Then someone with some decent video (NT does do video products) conversion skills sets it up to the website and or cross links to it from other sites.
One of the other things needed is for NT to market outside of its "user base". And for the love of god, NT needs to also understand that Canada, and the schools here need to have a Canadian office (I have volunteered this several times in the past) that is NT to deal with instead of some bogus distributor when ordering copies and getting information. Autodesk - canadian office. Softimage (although that is now autodesk but was controlled by avid in the last round) = canadian office. Eyeon (makers of fusion) = Canadian office. Adobe = Canadian office. And that office should be where the most studios that use LW are. Vancouver. Right in the heart of Canada's VFX, game and animation industry. If it did that, it would have an advantage over those companies because every one of those companies I just mentioned... have offices in... the most evil place in the world (to anyone who doesn't live there), the center of the universe... Toronto, Ontario. A place Canadian companies hate almost as much as having to "call down to the states".
I know for most people it sounds stupid and like splitting hairs as I am American but have lived here for what is possibly way to bloody long - but this is the attitude Canadians have. 2 of the major packages (maya, XSI) are all rooted for development in Canada with long histories. The least NT could do is have a Lightwave division sales and education office here. I know NT is a small company, but ignoring this is what keeps it small and always on the edge. the distribution deal they have up here for their products is brutal. You are dealing with a middle man if you are a reseller and they never have anything in stock and don't push the product to anyone. So why go through a middle man here in Canada if 1. they don't know the products and cant talk to you about it, and 2. just charge you more in the form of the 'canada tax' while point number 1. is all up in your in the face?? Providing you know who to even call to order a copy if in canada since LW is barely sold on the shelf here at any store, but you can walk into several places and pick up a hard copy of max or maya.

Christ, for example when LW was still priced logically before the pricing increase due to core's announcement (sub 1000 US) why wasn't NT all over the London Drugs chain and its computer departments for selling LW? If anyone is familiar with this chain (most people in canada are on the western half of the country) then you would know that you can walk in there and pick up a super high end wacom tablet, the full adobe production package and a high end workstation (ish, they have slacked off in recent years) all in one go. It's like the B+H video of canada in some london drugs with nice product, but NT because they are not up here in any real capacity, seemingly locked into a software distributor that they have that is brain damaged (and they are as I have dealt with them on and off for over 10 years - doesn't matter what they sell they suck) - they are leaving a market that is more or less leading the charge on VFX and animation and games wide open to domination by other companies.
Dumb and dumber.
But again, the offer goes out to start up NT Canada (put a little maple leaf next to it if you have to even though it would make me cringe because Canadians throw that around so much you would think its like the hammer and cythe) here in Vancouver, and help push the software into the what... 9 schools running here doing VFX and animation and support the studios that use it while expanding the artist user base across the board.

Am I a nutjob for saying this? Maybe, some people can disagree with me for sure, that happens a lot but I have a lot of points here that cannot be ignored either by the community itself or NT's Lightwave division. Simply saying they are concerned about it doesn't cut it. They need a plan, and I have just given you the bullet points.
 
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colkai

How Old? Really? Aww Heck
Gotta say, I agree wit ha lot of that.
Never understood why the talent out there isn't utilized, as you say, users are well aware of misconceptions on LW, not helped at all by some "demo reels" shown for it.

A good example of what can be done was the reel the community banded together to do not long back. Under short notice and of their own volition, they produced something that was superb. Makes you wonder what else could be done if they had the facility to do so. As you say, needs a way to submit work and Newtek need to shine a light on the users, after all, if you get great shots from folks using it on a daily basis, that speaks volumes about the product, far more than say, "used in film XYZ on pre-vis".
 

wfstecko

New member
the most evil place in the world (to anyone who doesn't live there), the center of the universe... Toronto, Ontario.

I agree that Toronto's the center of the universe :bowdown: but we're not evil anymore. Mel Lastman's no longer our mayor.
 
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