Imperial Star Destroyer - Render notes



bit quiet here, so...






Scene - LW 8.x (9.98Mb)
http://www.scifi3d.com/list.asp?intGenreID=10&intCatID=8
Thank You to Fractalsponge & Fabio Passaro

notes... >
LightWave 11 render - 5K resolution, 40 minutes on an AMD 1700

shading samples = 20
rays = 250
subrays = 250
minpix = 3
maxpix = 50
AA = 4
alternative = Cached Gi

save as HDR if possible
convert to HDR if possible
for animation, use a video denoiser

add bloom
add chromatic aberration
add lens distortion
add sound
 

prometheus

REBORN
You forgot to add in the to do list, add embergen :) and impact.

Looking good,
As for no background radiosity, not sure there really..I have to do some tests, if you use it very carefully and subtle and with gradients, it can do some things for it, depends on look..but it needs to be very subtle.

As for lighting, depends on where the ship is, usually in some shots we see, they float over a planet and thus catching up a tint of blue atmospheric light, not always though..it just gives that extra color contrast to otherwise just grey and dark.

So if you had the patience or a render farm for animation, would you render out and apply a batch filter process in photoshop or would you use filtering in directly in Lightwave, fusion etc?

Oh..if you can share a much lower hdr version of that image? I thought of trying some krita filters on it.
 

no background radiosity, not sure
for background radiosity, my tests didn't give good results at all, but would love to be wrong, it could certainly cut rendertime.

As for lighting, depends on where the ship is...
Absolutely.

So if you had the patience or a render farm for animation, would you render out and apply a batch filter process in photoshop or would you use filtering in directly in Lightwave, fusion etc?
Yes! no honestly, all could apply, it would depend, but for animation it is best to go the DaVinci/Fusion route.
if this doesn't work, i'd use another video editor, alternatively PhotoShop with a batch process, works fine too. It is also neat to do it in LightWave directly, but i unfortunately found some of the post process filters to be way too slow, adding rendertime.

Oh..if you can share a much lower hdr version of that image? I thought of trying some krita filters on it.
sure, coming up

note, 8bit only, not HDR.
 

Attachments

  • Gi-40min-5k.zip
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  • Gi-40min-5k-post.zip
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prometheus

REBORN
As for background radiosity, what background did you use to illuminate, a gradient, pure white background ?
 

gradient, textured environment.
but all in all background radiosity doesn't roll well for this specific ship.
adding vignetting dof chromatic-aberration color-correction does help, but can't "get there". thus > Monte Carlo.

below, Sky Tracer, actually looks good for NPR if tweaked (not show here), but if going for realism, (show here) not so much.
the problem with background radiosity is that it doesn't compute the "detail" (area A1 A2 A3) thus comes to short for realism.
could be interesting to test an HDR background, but the same law applies. it cannot render photoreal stuff.

this 720p scene also renders in basically the same time in BackRad vs MonteCarlo, not sure why yet, need to test a bit more.
update; tested the 5K scene and rendertimes are BackRad ~28min vs MonteCarlo 40min.
so not a big win for BackRad here, might be due to blurry reflections pumping up the rendertime.

 

Attachments

  • BackRad.jpg
    BackRad.jpg
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prometheus

REBORN
Thanks for testing and sharing erikals,
Have to check, but I´m not gonna be able to start rendering that today, got caught up in some fusion animation with strokes and shapes, and I have to do the cleaning of the house, no one else will :)
And I got to eat some meatballs, mustard herring, and prince sausage, and julmust to go with that as well... just to warm up for the christmas dinner at my sisters place.

You could try dpont sunsky and use skylight perhaps, it´s been a while since I tried that, I have to switch to 2015 and try..I think it is installed there.
Also, did you use directional rays if that helped to properly GI those areas that aren´t correct?
it´s been a while for me running that version though.

Just tested the object, have to check your scene.
I am missing dp fresnel and chan lum.
 
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alright, was able to cut rendertime using MonteCarlo

the trick goes like this >
render MonteCarlo in 5K (no reflection)
render Reflection in 2K (no MonteCarlo)
- combine in post.

this cuts the rendertime to 15min (instead of the original 40min)
and basically looks the same.



render alternative 1 = 40min
render alternative 2 = 15min
so for rendering animation i'd say this is an easy pick.
 

prometheus

REBORN


ok, now i'm jealous.

better start dinner over here too... 11.00pm...


Because we are worth it :)

I juust have to stop the GI rendering of the star destroyer and fix the food...that´s the hard part.

Extremely long GI rendering in there for my machine..
Asus Rog Desktop G20CB
Intel Core i7 6700 CPU 3.2 GHz
Ram 32 GB
Nvidia Gtx 1080
have to go through the settings and check with default settings etc, but it´s back to the old GI school..with too many settings.

not sure where your machine stands VS mine, for cpu that is, you did a new purchase recently?

Also, I am not using 11.3, but 2015, 2015 I think is considerably faster in it´s GI engine.
 
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Core i7 6700
yeah, that's not gonna float

thought you had a faster one?
my AMD 1700 is twice as fast, and the AMD 3900 is twice as fast as mine.



good thing is, AMD 1700/3900 support DDR4
so all you have to do really is buy a new motherboard + cpu.
you'd have to have win10 tho'
AMD doesn't run on Win7
(i wish it did)

for LightWave rendering it is (almost) all about the cpu.
 

prometheus

REBORN


yeah, that's not gonna float

thought you had a faster one?
my AMD 1700 is twice as fast, and the AMD 3900 is twice as fast as mine.



good thing is, AMD 1700/3900 support DDR4
so all you have to do really is buy a new motherboard + cpu.
you'd have to have win10 tho'
AMD doesn't run on Win7
(i wish it did)

for LightWave rendering it is (almost) all about the cpu.

I Bought mine in 2016 I think, and it´s CPU power VS GPU isn´t the best, thus my constant whining for GPU rendering.
Not gonna mix with the Asus rog and replace motherboard and CPU( I am not that tecnical guy..and don´t like it either even if I read up on it...not my interest)
, the first thing I need is a proper laptop with a decent CPU VS GPU ratio ..sort of, and some years after that a new
Stationary Desktop I think, depending on life and economics.


Yes, windows 10 here.
But no..for Lightwave rendering , it is about choosing both CPU and GPU in a good balance, and getting octane preferably or a massive focus on the CPU, like cageman does,for him working with cinematics at massive, it most likely is highly motivated to invest in such expensive hardware... but that is a system that is insanely expensive for guys like you and me.

Keep in mind that you would like to simulate with GPU, if you aim for TFD, which is much faster with GPU..for a certain level of DATA that is.

And also, it´s all about GPU ...almost for blender, which Im not gonna stop to use, on contrary.

yes your AMD, but you just recently bought that one right? Mine is 4 years old and hopefully I can use it decently for 2-3 years more, but then I think its about time...and meanwhile I may benefit from whatever laptop I also invest in soon.

Currently checking your GI settings, I think you could reduce a lot in there, but I have to screenshot the settings from that scene you have and my setups.

Sk sunsky can be nice to use, if you do not change to sk sunlight, just backdrop( otherwise you would get the temperature change depending on sunlight position and you do not want that), but then you can control exposure and various color settings, and if you check mirror mode for that sunsky, you can get a nice bluish coloring in the bottom of the ship, depending on where you are in space of course :)
 
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AMD, but you just recently bought that one right?
yep, actually ordered a used CPU from china.

Mine is 4 years old and hopefully I can use it decently for 2-3 years more, but then I think its about time...
yes, had an intel, an i5-760. Extremely slow, yours is over twice as fast


and meanwhile I may benefit from whatever laptop I also invest in soon.
just be careful, they Can be quite slow.
Never the less, a Good thing to have, for sure.

Currently checking your GI settings, I think you could reduce a lot in there,
well, i'm aiming at a 4K render this time, so, maybe a bit, but to get the approximately same quality is quite difficult.
i guess Cached Gi test is up next.

However, the trick in post #10 was Fantastic, if i may shamelessly say so myself.

(covered it years back).
Tho' again, a hack, like everything LightWave
 

prometheus

REBORN
I just noticed, you have multiple lights in there..I thought you only had one sunlight and the rest taking care of by GI and backdrop illumination.
Not sure if that is the best workflow to have fill and rim lights in for space scene lighting, unless you do not use GI at all and focus on those lights.

-A rim light is often some backlit source, or sunlight or window that highlights a countour, so I am not sure you should even use that, especially not when space often is dark, perhaps ..e slight contouring with rim light.
-Fill light I do not see the use of here, that should be taken care of by the GI.

Now I think if it would be a portrait scene, then I would of course have that in there as well.
Just my thoughts on it, I think those slows down the rendering quite a bit as well.

For a room, portrait and such, you would in real life often have windows with light source coming in, and either a crude look of just those lights and nothing more, or portrait studio setups with fill and rim lights and keylights, nothing of that is out there in space, except for a sunlight as keylight.

Sunsky must be far better than skytracer in terms of speed, you do not need it to trace so slowly, but can still get good control..probably even better than skytracer, but as mentioned..don´t use the sk sunlight just keep it as distant light.

yes..will take a look at your trick there later, got to install the dp fresnel shader and chan lum, where that came from that is.
need to set it up so it matches yours first, and go through the GI setting, perhaps later throw it in to 2019 lw versions, and blender :)

Still no food prepped. :(
 
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the lights, good catch, ran a test an indeed, cut the time by 20%


chan lum,
oh, not needed, not hooked to anything, so no need.
used it for a test, that didn't work.


the lights came with the original scene, might have been a 3DsMax scene actually, yes, thought there were quite a few.
in their defense tho' no Gi was used, thus more lights on those old scenes.

but cool, 20% so far


think i can push it down to 40% for some setups...



Still no food prepped. :(
no need, as long as there is coffee...


...and you help me crunch rendertimes!
 
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Sensei

TrueArt Support
no need, as long as there is coffee...

I want beer.. ;)


...and you help me crunch rendertimes!

....I would try occlusion shader...
make atlas UV map if you don't have UV, set up occlusion node, and use Surface Baking Camera..
It will straight away look good.

Baking, baking, baking.
That way you can speed up almost everything.
In old times with slow CPUs lights were baked to image maps everywhere (especially 3D games).
If object and light are static (don't move, rotate, object don't deform, don't change properties in animation etc. etc.), just camera flies,
you can safely replace ray-traced lights (and shadows) by once baked huge image map.


Another thing, light is pointing at surface of large object. 2nd side of object, far far away from the light item (e.g. large building in archiviz), never receives light from it. But render engine still has to calculate it. How to fix it? Limit its range.
Render engine takes light item world position, subtracts from world spot position (i.e. currently evaluated pixel), use Math > Vector > Distance node equivalent, and then checks if it is below threshold range. If so (or it is unset), it has to do ray-tracing between world spot and light item, to find out whether spot is in shadow.
Smart/knowledgeable artist can bake everything what light see directly to large enough image map (it is what is not in the shadow), and turn off Ray-Traced Shadows in Render Globals.
You will do it just once per entire animation (if it has static content, just camera animated).

Make experiments with lightweight scene first.


ps. What are render times now, if you turn off Ray-Traced Shadows in Render Globals?
 
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....I would try occlusion shader...
yes, might try this down the line.

Baking, baking, baking.
indeed, perhaps next step will be baking Gi.

Make experiments with lightweight scene first.
this scene works just fine actually, even on a mid-range machine.
the trick is to use Limited region.
agree, that is often the best approach, but in this case, LightWave handles it well.


How to fix it? Limit its range.
Good point. Note taken.


I want beer.. ;)
agree, at times i long for a cold beer.

 
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prometheus

REBORN

the lights, good catch, ran a test an indeed, cut the time by 20%



oh, not needed, not hooked to anything, so no need.
used it for a test, that didn't work.


the lights came with the original scene, might have been a 3DsMax scene actually, yes, thought there were quite a few.
in their defense tho' no Gi was used, thus more lights on those old scenes.

but cool, 20% so far


think i can push it down to 40% for some setups...




no need, as long as there is coffee...


...and you help me crunch rendertimes!

Had you the lw 2015 version instead of lw 11, I believe it would be significantly faster as well.

I suggest you try the sunsky environment as well, as it gives you some nice options for exposure, color space conversion etc, you should link it to the distant sun(key) when selecting sunlight, so do not use sk sunlight.
Set ground in the sunsky panel to mirror ( you need the proper sunsky version that has that)
This will give a blue tint on the bottom of the ship, like it was hovering over some atmospher from a (blue planet)
Or you would need additional blue tinted light to get that effect.

You also have linear enabled on all channels, which usaully gives a better look but very dark corners and needs more radiosity, alternatively set to Srgb and you would not get as nice image directly and have to tone map it.
One of the small features I appreciated they implemented in 2020...though I don´t have it, but I have that for free in other software.

never mind the render, it was just testing initially..and that was without lights and a completely new scene, so just the object with basic settings and sunsky environment, no extra lights at all, so It´s missing the fancy hull lights.
Just so you can see the sunsky settings.
Settings are not good enough for the GI and splotchy here..

Yep, meatballs, prince sausages, mustard herring, sourcream to dampen the herring sourness and julmust went straight down the esophagus.
Should have made potatoes to it ..that should go with the herring, but didn´t have any strangely.
tomorrow only vegetable soup and a long walk to balance all that up.



Star destroyer settings.jpg
 
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