Creating a corrective morph using Chronosculpt

hdace

Melancholy&MysteryStreet
Guys, why would Lino state that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs*, if it could (which is what you're implying)?

*: at this time/with this version

I would also like to point out that he did not say that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs. This is what he said, "Creating precise corrective morphs in LightWave at the moment is not possible. For now." He said LightWave. So what I said, that he's wrong, was wrong. Sorry Lino! It is true that precision is not what I'm managing to do. However, I do still disagree with the gist of jwiede's question.
 

hdace

Melancholy&MysteryStreet
Jason said "Yes, I am talking about improving deformations after the bone deforms." whereas you are talking about regular morphing which occurs before bones. By applying the morph before bones, such as Morphmixer does, you wont get any collapsing issues, of course. The vectors are rotated after the deformation has occurred.
However there is no way in LW of sculpting a morph accurately after the deformation has occurred but making it so it will work before bones and produce the same result, without manual trial and error.
What you are describing above sounds like a manual version of what I said in my first post about doing an inverse bone calculation.
This is what Gino is referring to and he is correct. I firmly believe that Chronosculpt wont help in that regard as it does not deal with bone information.

I'm not talking about regular morphing occurring before bones. I don't understand why you guys keep saying that. I realize there's an "under the hood" thing going on here that I obviously just don't understand. But when I test the morph corrections I'm testing them on an arm that has already rotated, not on a T-Pose. Doesn't that mean I'm improving a deformation after the bone deforms? How is what I'm doing different from what Jason is talking about? Maybe I'm just too dense to get it!
 

pooby

New member
In any 3d package, the default behaviour is for morphing to occur before bones in the operator stack. It is less clear with Lightwave, because there is no real stack transparent to the user. Lw just dictates that this is how it works 'under the hood'.
It is this order that makes it so difficult to make corrective morphs, as if you want to sculpt them in pose, you are making a morph that works after bones. To convert it to one that works before bones, there has to be calculations applied that take into consideration, the bones influence.
 

probiner

Fȯrum Mole
Couldn't Morphs in the Node Editor (set to Before Local Displacement) do the trick?
Shape Manager animation in SI is stuck under the animation (I know you have a vid of how using ICE to put them after). And Subdivision through Geometry Approximation is not stack controllable, other wise one would probably use ICE for fine displacement no?

Cheers
 
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pooby

New member
Morphs in the Node editor after bones could work if you are able to rotate them. If so, it would be very exciting news as morphs after bones produce far better results. I dont have LW installed anymore so I cant check it out.

In SI, Geometry Approximation is for viewing Subdivision surfaces in the viewport and for rendering. It is not directly about the actual geometry in the scene. If you want to Subdivide in SI, it is stack controllable if you so wish, but you'd have to keep it in the modelling section of the tree Or do it with ICE or you could make a subdivision object and keep it running live. But this is a bit of a tangent to the morphing issue.
 

prospector

dynamics...so much fun ;)
OK, this is confusing...
I have a foot that needs morphs when bent in Layout.
Chronosculpt doesn't see a LW scene to load.
I can load object but that does bupkus as I need to see bones bent to make a morph.
I see no bones in Chrono to bend there and do a morph.
Does this work with LW Layout animation?

Tried to save transformed object from Layout (with bent bones) and load in Chrono.
That comes in and I sculpted a smooth bend and saved as endomorph.

Loaded MDD file and now foot no longer follows bones, see no morph in MM.

Are there any vid tuts for doing this, or is what I am trying not possable?
 

hdace

Melancholy&MysteryStreet
I don't understand why you're loading an mdd in layout. You should be applying your new morph when the foot bones move.
 

prospector

dynamics...so much fun ;)
Well, so far I have discovered that a morph won't just come back into LW.
I seem to have to save a new LWO to get the morph on it. Then replace obj in layout so the foot then has a morph, tho it's not looking like the one in Chrono too much.
Now finding that in order to make morphs for the toes, I have to make the foot bend morph, save that LWO out and replace in Layout, then move the pinkytoe bones so I can morph in Chrono and save THAT LWO out and replace in Layout, then do the same for the Ringtoe bones and morph in Chrono and save THAT LWO out and replace in Layout....and so on and so on for all 5 toes.

Unless I am doing something way different than Chrono was ment to be used.
 

Cageman

Almost newbie
Guys, why would Lino state that CS cannot be used to make corrective morphs*, if it could (which is what you're implying)?

*: at this time/with this version

He didn't write CS in his post.... he wrote LightWave. :) Maybe he meant CS though, but I can only read what he wrote, not what he might have been thinking about.

Lino: Come back here and clear this up. :)
 

prospector

dynamics...so much fun ;)
Trying everything I can think of and this is best I get;
LWCapture.JPGChronoCapture.JPG

The LW morph at frame 15, looks nothing like the same morph at same frame in ChronoSculpt.


So....still confused :grumpy:
 

jwiede

Electron wrangler
He didn't write CS in his post.... he wrote LightWave. :) Maybe he meant CS though, but I can only read what he wrote, not what he might have been thinking about.

Lino: Come back here and clear this up. :)

It's contextual, as I read it. The thread is about CS (and we're in the CS forums), so he's saying we cannot create "precise corrective morphs in Lightwave" _using CS_. Still, clarification would be nice. If he was suggesting CS could be used to make precise corrective morphs, an explanation of how would also be welcome.
 

Greenlaw

Eat your peas.
The only way I've ever been able to do this in LightWave is by trial and error, that is, by repeatedly switching back and forth between Layout and Modeler to tweak a joint morph. It gets the job done but it's not very efficient...and a real pain in the butt.

Back when Chronosculpt was first announced, I too assumed it might be used for corrective morphs. While I do find found CS to be very useful in its intended usage (fixing MDDs,) creating and editing joint morphs unfortunately isn't one of them.

Being able to edit meshes directly in Layout, even at the most basic level, is a long overdue feature. A few years ago, 3D Cel demonstrated with an experimental plug-in that Layout is capable of doing this but nothing really came from that project.

G.
 

jasonwestmas

Adapting Artist
Trying everything I can think of and this is best I get;
View attachment 118332View attachment 118333

The LW morph at frame 15, looks nothing like the same morph at same frame in ChronoSculpt.


So....still confused :grumpy:

I'm still looking into this in a LW context but you'll get much better results if you use the displacement nodes with "before local displacement" turned on. Morph mixer won't work well.
 

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pooby

New member
I'm still looking into this in a LW context but you'll get much better results if you use the displacement nodes with "before local displacement" turned on. Morph mixer won't work well.

Yes because its after bones, but try that with the body rotated around. It won't work.
As I said earlier, doing morphs after bones is great, but you will need to also find a way of rotating the morph vectors properly.
 

jasonwestmas

Adapting Artist
Yes because its after bones, but try that with the body rotated around. It won't work.
As I said earlier, doing morphs after bones is great, but you will need to also find a way of rotating the morph vectors properly.

Edit: Actually with this node setup I don't get any unwanted distortion if I rotate the entire model 180. Even if I rotate the spine 180 all is well so far. But I'll have to complete an entire rig in lightwave to really know for sure.
 
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prospector

dynamics...so much fun ;)
Well that didn't work.
Went from -3-- to 3-- and all in between.
the morph moved slightly but nowhere near acceptible.
 

jasonwestmas

Adapting Artist
Well that didn't work.
Went from -3-- to 3-- and all in between.
the morph moved slightly but nowhere near acceptible.

I assume you are applying the morph to Tpose inside Chrono right? I would practice on something more simple like an elbow or knee protrusion.
 
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pooby

New member
Edit: Actually with this node setup I don't get any unwanted distortion if I rotate the entire model 180. Even if I rotate the spine 180 all is well so far. But I'll have to complete an entire rig in lightwave to really know for sure.

Are you rotating just the bones or the parent model?
 
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