Ashes effect like God of War

Impheris

New member
Hi, I'm new here (but classic LW user)
someone said to me that i can not do this effect on LW because LW is inferior, so... this is my first test and also my first time using Bullets Dynamics. Is a W.I.P. so it is not that impressive, also i just have a i5 processor, that is why i have less and larger pieces but i will make a final render with the complete effect later.
What do you think? any advice? Hope you like it.


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Sorry for my delay in responses and updates with the project but i´m working on various things (music and game development) and a little 3d project but soon i´ll have some updates and a better test.
 
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mighty sweet Impheris!  


could you elaborate a bit ?
 

prometheus

REBORN
Hi, I'm new here (but classic LW user)
someone said to me that i can not do this effect on LW because LW is inferior, so... this is my first test and also my first time using Bullets Dynamics. Is a W.I.P. so it is not that impressive, also i just have a i5 processor, that is why i have less and larger pieces but i will make a final render with the complete effect later.
What do you think? any advice? Hope you like it.


In all honesty, If you refer to Ash effect Gods of war, I would recomment start with a character and not boxes, you will find yourself having to deal with reality much sooner than living in broken box:)

I think I have some ...If not All of Alan McKays´s gods of war/ash effects videos, though I have only skimmed on the surface of that.
Those vids and effects is using 3D max, thinking particles and fumefx.

I think using bullet only works to a certain level, might be wiser to drive the destructed parts with actual particles and let have forces to affect those.
But basicly there is maybe 3 layers, the mains surface of the skin/flesh that needs to break loose initially as huge leaf chunksand crumple and disintergrate in to smaller dus, then you have the underlying flesh and skull that needs to follow the same path, but here it will be enough to disintergrate the full part in to smaller pieces directly, all those to be blown away with forces that resembles turbulent wind, and after a while meat air resistance and then gravity to fall down ever so slightly.

Takes a lot of calculation I suppose.
 

prometheus

REBORN
Don´t forget this thread..
 

prometheus

REBORN
Check post 38 with some more coverage from Alan McKay that I just posted.
That is just a general breakdown, I have some of those tutes somewhere, but that is something I am not allowed to post I would think.
 

Impheris

New member
In all honesty, If you refer to Ash effect Gods of war, I would recomment start with a character and not boxes, you will find yourself having to deal with reality much sooner than living in broken box:)

I think I have some ...If not All of Alan McKays´s gods of war/ash effects videos, though I have only skimmed on the surface of that.
Those vids and effects is using 3D max, thinking particles and fumefx.

I think using bullet only works to a certain level, might be wiser to drive the destructed parts with actual particles and let have forces to affect those.
But basicly there is maybe 3 layers, the mains surface of the skin/flesh that needs to break loose initially as huge leaf chunksand crumple and disintergrate in to smaller dus, then you have the underlying flesh and skull that needs to follow the same path, but here it will be enough to disintergrate the full part in to smaller pieces directly, all those to be blown away with forces that resembles turbulent wind, and after a while meat air resistance and then gravity to fall down ever so slightly.

Takes a lot of calculation I suppose.
Hi, yeah i have the video and a have seen it many times to analyze it. I know i can do all of that with just Bullet dynamics, maybe adding other techniques but without third party plug-ins, just lightwave. I know that with particles i can help myself a lot but that would be cheating, i want to do exactly the same. Alan McKays also said that it was very dificult to achieve the effect because the lots of calculations and in fact the final result is not the result he wanted haha. You are right, i will stop the test with the box and i will try with the actual scene i want. In the video, they made that effect with a helmet too, i want to replicate that because i need to render the final scene someday this year xD I want to do it in that way because i kind of sick of people who says that lightwave is inferior (yes i know that is not going to stop), and i have a simple idea for a video with that effect. Also is a nice effect to learn and a very cool achievement.

My next project will be an effect i saw in a Houdini video from 2020 that some guy send me saying something like "Lightwave can not do that blablabla" and i know it can.
Anyway thank you for take your time to write all those useful tips. And sorry for my english.
 

Impheris

New member
Check post 38 with some more coverage from Alan McKay that I just posted.
That is just a general breakdown, I have some of those tutes somewhere, but that is something I am not allowed to post I would think.
It was just a first test and i made in less than 2 hours i think, also my first time using Bullets Dynamics but i did not saw anything on Alan´s video that i can not do with Lightwave :) i know that, even the effect with kratos's daughter i just need some creativity to achieve the effect ;) in LW also i'm very noob with nodes too, so i prefer to go easy.
Don´t forget this thread..
I forgot that i was so proud of my first test that i posted it in that thread xD
 
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prometheus

REBORN
It was just a first test and i made in less than 2 hours i think, also my first time using Bullets Dynamics but i did not saw anything on Alan´s video that i can not do with Lightwave :) i know that, even the effect with kratos's daughter i just need some creativity to achieve the effect ;) in LW also i'm very noob with nodes too, so i prefer to go easy.

I forgot that i was so proud of my first test that i posted it in that thread xD

I realy doubt that,..and which video, the ones I posted? that is something else from the full tutorials, if you have the full tutorials..you would understand the complexity of it.
The tutorials aren´t available open now as I understand it, he had his campaign some years ago an only available for download within a few days for those who signed up for it, though they were free.

Fake siming it to try and acheive that look is something else.

I haven´t watched the full tutorials completely though, but what I saw has technical features not available in Lightwave..ergo you have to fake around it in another way..and that will most likely not be just as good, and much more tedious.

Also..the mesh should be animated dynamic will being fractured.

I did some tests in blender with fractured pieces and cloth dynamics, since that has the "Feel" similar to ash leaflets flowing in the wind, each one of those should be ripped out in some larger chunks, irregular in edge shape, and crumple and also have proper shaders to go from skin, to fire to ash, and after it flows in the wind a tiny distance, break apart to finer segment, then again to ash dust.

In blender there are some quickt tricks, though it won´t work to fullest satisfaction, quick explode for instance, will just let you apply it, and bam..you got the piece fractured and assigned to particle system to move as you like, but it´s only the shell of the mesh, you would have to thicken parts and that will cause issues.
May work for very thin outsdide parts, but not ideal for collapsing the inside of the character.
But that is my first impression of it, there may be more to it than I know for now, also..I haven´t checked in to animation nodes to control much more of that.
 
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.....I did some tests in blender with fractured pieces and cloth dynamics, since that has the "Feel" similar to ash leaflets flowing in the wind, each one of those should be ripped out in some larger chunks, irregular in edge shape, and crumple and also have proper shaders to go from skin, to fire to ash, and after it flows in the wind a tiny distance, break apart to finer segment, then again to ash dust......

There’s no fire in Alan McKay’s animation. The skin goes directly into ashes. There is a close-up of the girl with the beginning of disintegration. You even don’t need a skin shader just a good ash material (the skin is real filmed). In the second shot everything is already ash (probably the hair does look like it’s being warped a bit in compositing before it’s covered by the ash simulation). Also, I don’t see any “cloth dynamics” but only crumbling hard parts, particles and dust.

Simply making a test of the same quality is very difficult and costly. You'd need the filmed footage and all the source material (photos, HDRs and such). Something like this is not made by one person, there are many people working on it. The shot with the helmet is still the easiest to "recreate" (because the hole shot is CG).
But of course it is very time expensive: if I remember correctly McKay needed up to 3 days for a simulation run. An other guy made the ash shader and someone (?) had to compose it.

For the simulation: the most complex thing is to create a feeling of flying ash (weight, air resistance, disintegration). What needs a lot of testing and time (that’s what McKay said in tech talk too).
You should use a mix of bullet simulation and particles (with and without instances).
For the dust I would prefer TurbulenceFD but possible would be VDB solver or HyperVoxels (for someone who can).

ciao
Thomas
 
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prometheus

REBORN
There’s no fire in Alan McKay’s animation. The skin goes directly into ashes. There is a close-up of the girl with the beginning of disintegration. You even don’t need a skin shader just a good ash material (the skin is real filmed). In the second shot everything is already ash (probably the hair does look like it’s being warped a bit in compositing before it’s covered by the ash simulation). Also, I don’t see any “cloth dynamics” but only crumbling hard parts, particles and dust.

Simply making a test of the same quality is very difficult and costly. You'd need the filmed footage and all the source material (photos, HDRs and such). Something like this is not made by one person, there are many people working on it. The shot with the helmet is still the easiest to "recreate" (because the hole shot is CG).
But of course it is very time expensive: if I remember correctly McKay needed up to 3 days for a simulation run. An other guy made the ash shader and someone (?) had to compose it.

For the simulation: the most complex thing is to create a feeling of flying ash (weight, air resistance, disintegration). What needs a lot of testing and time (that’s what McKay said in tech talk too).
You should use a mix of bullet simulation and particles (with and without instances).
For the dust I would prefer TurbulenceFD but possible would be VDB solver or HyperVoxels (for someone who can).

ciao
Thomas

No fire..Yes, correct...my mistake, I was confusing it all since I just recently went out in the forrest to burn some personal documents..a lot of paper and I guess I was too much influenced on the nice amber glow before it turns to ashes, and that is what I would have wanted for a true burn to ash effect before it disintergrate, that would be much harder to acheive though I think, would look much cooler and realistic if you see the skin start to glow with heat before it fades to ash though.

As for cloth, not sure there..will have to study it more closely and check out the tutorials, not sure if I got all the parts though, will have to check the external drives for it and go through it when I get the time.
Not sure I would say the most complex thing would be the weight Air and resistance...but more the actual disintergration that I think needs secondary, third, and even four breakups that takes place sequentially from the same pieces when it flows away in the air, that I am not sure of how to deal with in Lightwave.
the problem with instaces, is that they wouldn´t be from the broken parts, rather a filled volume of particles, and if you would have an animated mesh, having a fill with particles may be tricky.
A tip would be to look in to Bryphis particle tutorial..on how to use dpont boolean nodes to fill a mesh with particles, with blender I just have to use fill volume which is much easier or use quick explode which makes the parts connected to particles directly, but with issues I mentioned above.

For, dust final smoke layer..forget about hv´s, I have done that some years ago..but it´s nature and dynamics will not allow for the required realism if you aim to get close to the real VFX, you would end up with some levels below that, only some part may work for finer particle dust, but nothing that can replace fluid smoke in an efficiant and realistic way.
Mr Rid have done some really great things with dust smoke like effects from a tree VFX shot, but that is a bit to the extreme I think, when you just as easy could use a smoke fluid sim.

TFD yes...would work just fine.
Gas solver, end result..may work, but it´s horrible to work with in terms of previewing and simulating it.

I recently did some test with blender smoke fluids from simulated cloth parts that would break apart, a so so result, but I didn´t spend more than 40 minutes for initial test and then I had other things to do.
 

prometheus

REBORN
Uhmm..hard to locate the old stuff on the forums..very old tfd test..:)

1613757447485.jpeg



https://forums.newtek.com/attachments/bullet-and-fluids-dust-mov.105569/


Thread....

Many have tried or asked for the same before, here´s another thread where we discussed this, and some people are finding that it was to hard to acheive in lightwave ..at that time..
 

Impheris

New member
There’s no fire in Alan McKay’s animation. The skin goes directly into ashes. There is a close-up of the girl with the beginning of disintegration. You even don’t need a skin shader just a good ash material (the skin is real filmed). In the second shot everything is already ash (probably the hair does look like it’s being warped a bit in compositing before it’s covered by the ash simulation). Also, I don’t see any “cloth dynamics” but only crumbling hard parts, particles and dust.

Simply making a test of the same quality is very difficult and costly. You'd need the filmed footage and all the source material (photos, HDRs and such). Something like this is not made by one person, there are many people working on it. The shot with the helmet is still the easiest to "recreate" (because the hole shot is CG).
But of course it is very time expensive: if I remember correctly McKay needed up to 3 days for a simulation run. An other guy made the ash shader and someone (?) had to compose it.

For the simulation: the most complex thing is to create a feeling of flying ash (weight, air resistance, disintegration). What needs a lot of testing and time (that’s what McKay said in tech talk too).
You should use a mix of bullet simulation and particles (with and without instances).
For the dust I would prefer TurbulenceFD but possible would be VDB solver or HyperVoxels (for someone who can).

ciao
Thomas
Exactly that is why i'm recreating the helmet effect and still it is cost time, he said that he tried with particles but he did not like it so i will try without particles first. Now about the girl, of course the effect is a composition but the fun part is obvious CG so...
 

Impheris

New member
I realy doubt that,..and which video, the ones I posted? that is something else from the full tutorials, if you have the full tutorials..you would understand the complexity of it.
The tutorials aren´t available open now as I understand it, he had his campaign some years ago an only available for download within a few days for those who signed up for it, though they were free.

Fake siming it to try and acheive that look is something else.

I haven´t watched the full tutorials completely though, but what I saw has technical features not available in Lightwave..ergo you have to fake around it in another way..and that will most likely not be just as good, and much more tedious.

Also..the mesh should be animated dynamic will being fractured.

I did some tests in blender with fractured pieces and cloth dynamics, since that has the "Feel" similar to ash leaflets flowing in the wind, each one of those should be ripped out in some larger chunks, irregular in edge shape, and crumple and also have proper shaders to go from skin, to fire to ash, and after it flows in the wind a tiny distance, break apart to finer segment, then again to ash dust.

In blender there are some quickt tricks, though it won´t work to fullest satisfaction, quick explode for instance, will just let you apply it, and bam..you got the piece fractured and assigned to particle system to move as you like, but it´s only the shell of the mesh, you would have to thicken parts and that will cause issues.
May work for very thin outsdide parts, but not ideal for collapsing the inside of the character.
But that is my first impression of it, there may be more to it than I know for now, also..I haven´t checked in to animation nodes to control much more of that.
Of course i can not do exactly the same techniques he did because he uses other softwares jajajaja of course my friend, i'm going to do the same effect / simulation with the tools i know and i have, i'm not faking anything, i'm using Bullets Dynamics, so it is a simulations xD i'm recreating the same effect also it is not tedious at all jaja in 2 hours i figure out how to work with bullets dynamics for the first time, how to achieve the (very) base effect with less polys, making the effect more obvious with bigger polys xD
 

Impheris

New member
No fire..Yes, correct...my mistake, I was confusing it all since I just recently went out in the forrest to burn some personal documents..a lot of paper and I guess I was too much influenced on the nice amber glow before it turns to ashes, and that is what I would have wanted for a true burn to ash effect before it disintergrate, that would be much harder to acheive though I think, would look much cooler and realistic if you see the skin start to glow with heat before it fades to ash though.
That is the oldest trick on CG ever made, that is easy
 

prometheus

REBORN
Exactly that is why i'm recreating the helmet effect and still it is cost time, he said that he tried with particles but he did not like it so i will try without particles first. Now about the girl, of course the effect is a composition but the fun part is obvious CG so...
I have to gather all the tutes I downloaded from Alan Mcays campaign with free tutorials.
I wasn´t fond of how he posted them though..though I understand why to some degree, it was just hard to follow when the parts was posted..even though he sent out notifcation mails for each part, there could be three or or five parts, but sometimes he didn´t know how many parts it was going to be it seemed, so you never knew when or how many parts it would be.

Would have prefered them all finished, labeled the same and in chapter 1.2.3. etc, the way he posted them they could have different names without a prefix/suffix for the part that was the same for the whole training.
so part of that is why I sometimes lost out on some parts and may not have all parts for some tutorials.

Not sure where he says he didn´t like particles, can you point to which vid, and timestamp on where he says that?

As for particles in Lightwave, that is probably what you want as well besides some fracture bullet parts, but effects like this..
(see mov sample I did some years ago..with too excessive motion) https://forums.newtek.com/attachments/destroy-mov.121008/
where you just push them with fractal textures isn´t optimal cause you will never have resistance and other dynamic factors applied, so it´s better to apply particle driven displacement and let wind forces push the particles first and attach the poly parts.

Looking at Mcay´s Thanos VFX ..there´s similar destruction, a lot of tyflow and lot of particles and some nodal wind control.
Not sure how tyflow and 3d max wind forces are working there nodally, for lightwave you could ad directional wind, enter it´s vector settings and add a procedural texture, change to node editor procedural and work with some complex vectors there perhaps, but I´ve only touched on that briefly.

There are ways to fill a mesh with points in modeler ( fill solid) and either do various layer of that, these will be random..which if you wan´t you could quantify to fixed grid..but you might just as well use particle direcly, check this from Bryphi77...


So try that and add wind forces to blow it away and get the particles to have air resistance and some weight first, then you need to connect that with dpont nodes to the mesh parts, do the same for another layer of particles, but use instances and some prebuild irregular mesh parts, these parts needs rotation spin as well either from particles or from themself.
Add gas solver smoke from the particles or parts, or TFD.

Secondary disintergration, or third sequenced disintergration...have no idea right now for Lightwave, parts sequently breaking up over time, from the same pieces that intially is broken up in smaller pieces.
 
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prometheus

REBORN
That is the oldest trick on CG ever made, that is easy
You mean the blade effect perhaps?
Well sort of easy, but when it should match the disintergration fracture, then I would think it´s not as simple as a dissolve..which I think is what you refer to as the oldest CG trick ever made :)

And...that effect has never bothered on getting a true heat crumple effect from the glow, when you look at papper burning it crumples, sometimes curls by the heat before going soot black then grey ash.
 

Impheris

New member
You mean the blade effect perhaps?
Well sort of easy, but when it should match the disintergration fracture, then I would think it´s not as simple as a dissolve..which I think is what you refer to as the oldest CG trick ever made :)

And...that effect has never bothered on getting a true heat crumple effect from the glow, when you look at papper burning it crumples, sometimes curls by the heat before going soot black then grey ash.
mmm no, i haven't seen that tutorial, i know it exist somewhere and it's old but i did not find it :( anyway i can think one simple way to do it with 2 same objects, one for the burn effect and one for the fracture, envelopes and gradients... In fact i think that is the way they did it on Alan's video, maybe i'm worng i do not remember right now. Sorry if i do not understand the exact thing you want :)

That last part, yeah that level of detail would be amazing
 

prometheus

REBORN
Actual blade 2 movie ref, death of Nyssa in the end, where we see more fire heat initially, not as complex though for the disintergartion as thanos or gods of war where they took that some steps further, but they at least got some fire heat initially which isn´t present on Gods of War.
There´s quite some time in years between these movies and effects though, I think maya and houdini was used for this shot.

Can´t find the tute right now, was posted here on the forums and I think I recently saw it but I am not certain the actual links worked.
Think I have it stored on some external drive as well.

 
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