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Thread: Really need advice - C4D r11 or CORE?

  1. #1
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    Really need advice - C4D r11 or CORE?

    Hi all

    I did search the forum and found some advice but not quite the answer I am looking for. I am hoping that Newtek might even chime in here.

    I am Intel Mac, LW9.6 and demo C4D r11.

    I have been LW since LW4 and consistently upgraded but have finally hit the wall. In the past I focused on sets and lighting so the LW render was to die for.
    But now I have decided I want more fun out of this so I am moving to character animation.

    I am getting killed trying to learn joints!!! It has really shown me how hard things are to use in LW as things seemed to be buried or need to get through so many clicks to get some where.

    The manual has one paragraph and joints and the rest is z axis bones.
    I have purchased rigging dvds and they all deal with z axis bones. So - I am having a hell of time learning joints to create high end rigs.

    Now I have been using C4D r11 for 2 weeks and was creating rigs, writing expressions, immediately and working great! Everything is so easy to get to and so integrated things go very quickly and intuitively.
    But the render is clearly inferior to LW.

    So.... I was wondering if any one has a feel for how rigging will be different in Core? I ask this now because the 31st and special offer ending is only days away.
    Any one have any thoughts on this or maybe even a better way to learn rigging in 9.6?

    Thanks for any thoughts.
    Sean

  2. #2
    Banned OnlineRender's Avatar
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    I always go for final output , if there render is inferior to LW thats your answer right there , you can always find different ways to rig , or get the guys to help you on here , i can understand your concerns , but weigh up your options look hard then look at the cost difference to quality .

    but if you feel at home with C4D , honestly it dosnt matter what anybody says , the final decision will be yours and yours only ! .

    Goodluck hope you make the correct choice .

  3. #3
    Javis Jones: Night Crew geothefaust's Avatar
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    My brief word of advice to you, is to be patient and stay focused. No matter what application you learn rigging in, it's going to be HARD. LW has a bad rap for rigging. Yes, in the past it's true, but with 9.6 things are much different. While it doesn't have a complete constraint system, it's pretty competent when you use Same as Item and up vectors.

    Pick yourself up a copy of Larry's Definitive Guide to Rigging DVD. That will get you started. Then dive into LW rigging and start asking questions here on the forums when you have them. You'll find yourself rigging in a couple of months.


    Quote Originally Posted by spsauber View Post
    Hi all

    I did search the forum and found some advice but not quite the answer I am looking for. I am hoping that Newtek might even chime in here.

    I am Intel Mac, LW9.6 and demo C4D r11.

    I have been LW since LW4 and consistently upgraded but have finally hit the wall. In the past I focused on sets and lighting so the LW render was to die for.
    But now I have decided I want more fun out of this so I am moving to character animation.

    I am getting killed trying to learn joints!!! It has really shown me how hard things are to use in LW as things seemed to be buried or need to get through so many clicks to get some where.

    The manual has one paragraph and joints and the rest is z axis bones.
    I have purchased rigging dvds and they all deal with z axis bones. So - I am having a hell of time learning joints to create high end rigs.

    Now I have been using C4D r11 for 2 weeks and was creating rigs, writing expressions, immediately and working great! Everything is so easy to get to and so integrated things go very quickly and intuitively.
    But the render is clearly inferior to LW.

    So.... I was wondering if any one has a feel for how rigging will be different in Core? I ask this now because the 31st and special offer ending is only days away.
    Any one have any thoughts on this or maybe even a better way to learn rigging in 9.6?

    Thanks for any thoughts.
    Sean

  4. #4
    Super Member Silkrooster's Avatar
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    Due to this being a lightwave forum. Most if not everyone will tell you to go with lightwave. But like OnlineRender said the choice is yours and yours alone.
    Right now its too early to speculate on on core. I have high hopes for where it will be in the next year or two. My advice is if you can wait a bit longer than wait see how core unfolds. If you can't wait, well do what your gut tells you. Its your money if you need to get animating right away do what you have to. There is nothing stoping you from going with Core once it is ripe for you to pick.
    On the other hand how much of that money you were planing to spend on C4D could you use to increase your education? Would learning more tricks of the trade make up the difference of another program? When you purchase one of the courses from Dan Ablan or Larry Shultz, do you know that you can ask them questions requarding the course? Which in its self increases the value of those courses.
    How much of that money could you spend on plug ins that would speed up your work flow? How would the plug ins benefit you vs C4D? Are there plugins for lightwave that can change how you work with character rigs? How do those plugins alone benefit you vs. C4D?
    Questions, questions and only you can determine the answers once you feel you have done enough research.
    Good luck in what ever your decision may be.
    Silk
    Silkrooster.com - temporarily offline due to updating...
    Spinquad Forum - Closed Sorry...
    lightwave-resources.pdf - - temporarily offline due to updating...

  5. #5
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    Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

    I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

    And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

    So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

    I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

    Any one else?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silkrooster View Post
    ...
    On the other hand how much of that money you were planing to spend on C4D could you use to increase your education? Would learning more tricks of the trade make up the difference of another program? When you purchase one of the courses from Dan Ablan or Larry Shultz, do you know that you can ask them questions requarding the course? Which in its self increases the value of those courses.
    How much of that money could you spend on plug ins that would speed up your work flow? How would the plug ins benefit you vs C4D? Are there plugins for lightwave that can change how you work with character rigs? How do those plugins alone benefit you vs. C4D?
    Questions, questions and only you can determine the answers once you feel you have done enough research.
    Good luck in what ever your decision may be.
    Silk
    Silk - GREAT reply!

    It actually did not sink in about having access to Larry (and all of you) for help. And yes - you are right about taking that cost of C4D and getting any good plug ins.

    In the past I had things like PuppetMaster and then Messiah - but that is not available for Mac.

    If anyone has suggestions for a great rigging tool for mac please let me know
    Sean

  7. #7
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    I hate rigging - at least in LW. It's tedious, frustrating and an endless cycle of back and forth between Modeler and Layout to adjust things because Layout is not point-aware. The only way I've managed to keep some sanity in this process is with Maestro. It takes a great deal of the pain out of the process.

    There are some irritations in that the expressions are LW, rather than Relativity (as the latter is not LScript-aware) and that the interaction speed can be less than what you'd hope for. However, it's a very powerful and flexible tool - completely customisable and well documented. The support from the developers has never been less than superb.
    Inactive.

  8. #8
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsauber View Post
    Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

    I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

    And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

    So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

    I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

    Any one else?
    I'm going to sound biased here, but strictly based on what you are addressing, I really would consider 3ds Max 2010...for one you won't give up a thing regarding rendering quality. Secondly, with C.A.T 3 recently added for new 3ds Max subscribers (it was brought over from the Softimage Acquisition) it's the Bees Knees for ease of use...and you don't sacrifice a thing in capability. It also has it's own Muscle toolkit. It's so easy, I'm anxious to get back on this CA project I had on the backburner.
    You also have Character Studio, which has been in Max for a while now...it's pretty powerful and really easy to use too. But, the skinning tools are way beyond what you have in LW
    Still, plenty of Game studios using it...and they can use anything they want. One of it's strongpoints is a nice Crowd Simulation module.
    Max 2010 is a really strong release, so I would give it a good looking over before you make a decision. As CORE develops, you can then decide if it's going to meet your needs, but for EASY character animation, Max has that covered pretty well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bajid_n4oY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYK3M...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4tDM...eature=related
    http://download.autodesk.com/us/3dsm...s_820x500.html
    http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/t...ging_with_cat/
    http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/t...ating_with_cat
    http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...12&id=12299737

    Mental Mill that comes with max 2010 (realtime nodal shader platform which will render in Mental Ray or can be used in game engines):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQUn0...eature=related
    Last edited by AbnRanger; 03-27-2009 at 08:07 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    I'm going to sound biased here, but strictly based on what you are addressing, I really would consider 3ds Max 2010...
    AbnRanger

    Thank you for the response. If I were on a pc I certainly would consider 3Ds but I prefer to stay on mac and not run in boot camp.

  10. #10
    Member sammael's Avatar
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    Dont know if anyone pointed this out but considering one of the major complaints with Lightwave is CA I 'think' (hope) it would be fairly safe to assume that this will be a major consideration in the development of Core. Whilst that wont help you in the short term in the long term, unless something hoes horribly wrong LW should have some much stronger CA tools. It remains to be seen of course but with all the end user input I believe we might end up with something fairly comprehensive it is certainly a much sought after feature set.

  11. #11
    what sort of character animation are you looking to do?

    keyframe
    mo cap
    procedual/footstep
    squash n stretch toon style

    personally i would not opt for cinema4d as it costs more than 3dsmax 2010 yet delivers so much less, plus i really do not like the idea of the upkeep on the modules on cinema4d either...waay to expensive per year.

    you can do character animation in lightwave...it's not perfect but it is possible.

    there are other options if you want to look around>
    messiah studio
    maya complete
    houdini 10 [out soon]
    xsi essentials 7.5
    3dsmax 2010 [out soon]

    as well as blender of course

    as for lightwave core..well is JUST started to be constructed so waay too early to know what's going to be in it regards character animation...could be waiting till 2010 to get an idea on that front if we're realistic about it.
    Last edited by cresshead; 03-27-2009 at 09:03 PM.
    stee+cat
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    http://www.cresshead.com/

    Q - How many polys?
    A - All of them!

  12. #12
    if your set on mac o/s then maya complete or houdini 9 escape...nothing else would really compare for character animation
    both are around $1999 which is much less than cinema 4d
    stee+cat
    real name: steve gilbert
    http://www.cresshead.com/

    Q - How many polys?
    A - All of them!

  13. #13
    Javis Jones: Night Crew geothefaust's Avatar
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    No problem.

    What problems did you run into exactly? You should start rigging with Zbones firstly. You'll get acquainted with how things operate. I wouldn't use joints until you're familiar with the basics of rigging. All of the techniques you learn for Zbones will apply to joints. Of course there are some unique things to remember for joints.

    -Don't mix joints with Zbones and vice versa in a hierarchy.
    -The "bone" portion of the joint has the bone options that you would find for Zbones. Including weight map options, rest length/rotation, strength, etc..
    -The former will not apply if you have a single joint with no child joints.


    Among other things, this is just off the top of my head.


    Anyway, what problems were you having? There are lots of people on the forums that will help if you post your questions and situation.



    Quote Originally Posted by spsauber View Post
    Man I knew this forum would be good - but fast too! Thank you OnlineRender and geothefaust.

    I actually have Larry's guide... and unfortunately that is what put me over the edge. I purchased it hoping it was current and would help with joint rigs but it is old bones.

    And as I try to follow with joints - they are clearly not just interchangeable.

    So ... I hear the advice so far - and I REALLY appreciate it.

    I would still like to hear from others as well - I really want to stay with LW - but man am I spoiled after two weeks of the ease of C4D.

    Any one else?

  14. #14
    -Don't mix joints with Zbones and vice versa in a hierarchy.
    I may be wrong about this, but I think the rule is actually that you shouldn't mix joints and zbones within an IK chain, not necessarily the entire hierarchy.

    Eric

  15. #15
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsauber View Post
    AbnRanger

    Thank you for the response. If I were on a pc I certainly would consider 3Ds but I prefer to stay on mac and not run in boot camp.
    That's cool. Given that situation, I would have to ask if you've given Maestro or Messiah a look-see?

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