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Thread: A Word from The Loser.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    The Anatomy and Biology classes (took Biology in HS, yet have to learn the very same crap in college all over again) didn't prepare me...FOR LIFE.

    i suppose you can say that it can be about how it was taught. in highschool i paid no attention to trigonometry, for example. but since getting into 3D scripting i've been getting out my old textbooks.

    if i was in a frame of mind that could understand the implications of studying anatomy / biology, i think i would welcome those classes. to me that knowledge is valuable especially as an artist. my only regret is that while they taught us those subjects, they didnt really present it in a way that was interesting that i could be more inclined to actually remember them.

    again, to me, education is learning how to think, not simply an inculcation of knowledge or skill sets.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  2. #32
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faulknermano View Post
    in general, i'd rather have a 'well-rounded' person because they are usually easier to train.
    Thanks for the post, now I don't have to write the same thing using different words

    I think the worst thing you can get is specific application training. Learning an application is just a technicality compared to the other skills you need.

    Cheers,
    Mike

  3. #33
    Running at 29.97 fps Titus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightwolf View Post
    Thanks for the post, now I don't have to write the same thing using different words

    I think the worst thing you can get is specific application training. Learning an application is just a technicality compared to the other skills you need.

    Cheers,
    Mike
    I agree with you but some people are worker bees, they don't tend to do more than they are supposed to do at work, that's what they don't find a need for useless konwledge. I'm not targeting anyone here, but the people I've met at other studios.

  4. #34
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus View Post
    I agree with you but some people are worker bees...
    I know what you mean. In that case on the job training should be more than adequate though.

    Just as a different perspective, we have a three-tiered higher education system here: Universities, colleges and trade school.
    University is definetly aimed at a highly skilled, specialized and mostly academic or scientific carrer (depending on the subject that is).
    College (I can't find a more fitting english word) is more practical and a bit more generic.
    Trade school covers basically anything from a car mechanic to a media operator (note: not designer!). Usually you're a trainee (so you're on the job) for a few years coupled with a bit of schooling.

    Either way you choose, you can work in this industry (there is also the maverick self-taught option which I wouldn't recommend anymore, times have changed).

    Cheers,
    Mike

  5. #35
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    I think the rants about the nature of the American College system are interesting. I mean You don't HAVE to get a degree. You can take classes and learn what you want a good part of the time. I know that there are many students from all over the world who are sent here because a more rounded education is seen as a valuable thing.

    There are British and European schools that are subject specific. There are Trade specific shools here as well...such as FULL SAIL.

    I don't think my time in Psychology or History classes were exactly wasted time. I think they gave insight in how people and society work. Biology gives me insight into how my body works and the mechanics of movement in animation. I have used the Algebra I learned (a little anyway with a little geometry thrown in)

    What they didn't teach in college, was that the @$$ kissers get ahead. A course in networking would have been valuable....and I don't mean Server/Client networking. I mean professional networking. Creating a professional image. Marketing Yourself.

    And your four year degree? Well, it may be devaluated because of people who choose to outsource or it may be worth less because of kids out of school using EDU copies of software on computers bought by their parents working for $150 a day are undercutting Professional rates. Mostly, I think it is a mentality of certain people in our society. There are people out there who over use the word "just".
    JUST.
    It is a word that seems more and more is used by people who either don't understand the scope of a task, or want to belittle the efforts of others. These people tend to have a false sense of importance. They believe they are special somehow and are entitled to liberties, while the rest of us should be gleeful should they deign to leave us their table scraps.

    We all need to take a stand against people who belittle our efforts. When, you are confronted by one of these people. Calmly, begin to explain things using language that will demonstrate their ignorance. When they feel sufficiently overwhelmed, then they are approaching enlightenment in that THEY HAVE NO F'ING CLUE WHAT YOU DO!

    Your education isn't useless. If you aren't using it that is your fault. If you let others belittle it, that is your fault.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter2999 View Post
    What they didn't teach in college, was that the @$$ kissers get ahead.
    Although i must point out that college was exactly where i developed a disdain for people who will sabotage your efforts because they would rather be nice. "its nice", "ooh i like the colors", the danger of everyone blowing smoke up your *** is that you will eventually start to believe them.

    you can also find them right here on the forums. just make a post criticising newtek.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugeny View Post
    As a looser i can tell u only one thing: keep working
    thats the truth , keep working, if u keep failing , u will keep learning from the failure and start winning.

  8. #38
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    Another bit of advice if you want any:

    You're only a looser if you stop doing what you love to do.
    Last edited by jasonwestmas; 09-14-2008 at 08:29 AM.
    All that is powerful or long standing is first conceived in the imagination; supported by the hope of possibility and then made manifest in our commitment of our current physical reality.

  9. #39
    To be sure, I work for a University, so perhaps take that as you will...

    however, I think that a University education is actually very helpful. Look, if all you wanna do is learn Maya and get a job in ILM, then you will say "all those english, biology, physics, and history classes won't help me at all". There is some point of merit there, until you start to analyze what learning that will do to your overall creative flow.

    You see, all creative design - I don't care what it is that you do - has to tell A Story. This is non-negotiable. Look at the [insert name of favorite brown caffeinated sugar beverage here] on your desk. That bottle has a story to tell. It has specific engineering requirements but it also has design elements. What do those design elements say? What do the curvy lines on the bottle of Pepsi I'm looking at tell the buyer? Then there's the label.... Look at the images in Newtek's own gallery.. or the most successful images on CGTalk.com. The ones that are the most successful (note - success does not equal a positive emotion upon seeing the image! Success can also be measured if people hate the image) will ALL be telling some sort of story.

    Where does this Story come from? It's not all from your Creative Writing classes in High School. It's not from the similar classes in University either. It comes from Your LIFE EXPERIENCE. If you are a world traveler, for example, and have a load of LIFE EXPERIENCES then you have a lot of material to draw from to tell your tales. But if you're like most of the world, you don't actually GO very far outside your daily normal life. This is where Unviersity classes will help.

    Granted, I think that for art and other creative type curriculums, the classes should all be tailored towards creative thinking. Like Psychology of Art, instead of just plain Psychology.... but if you are in that psychology class, see what you can glean from it and put that creative mind to use, seeing in what ways you can use these otherwise meaningless bits of trivia to your advantage. Perhaps in the biology class or chemistry class there is something that will help you to understand why your image of an animal doesn't look quite right. Physics classes can undoubtedly help with Lightwave in numerous ways, from understanding light, to expressions, to using that knowledge to make an animated scene be far more believable.

    I was a student in one of these liberal arts curriculums, and instead of it getting me down I did search for these things. Turns out that I was able to see patterns in the different classes that helped me not only understand the classes better, but also helped me make some better choices in my animations. Of course, by the way I write, you'd think I was some Master Of All Things, and I'm not - but I did feel that what I learned was not wasted.

    It all depends on you. If you already have the stories, if you already have the art training... then what you need is a school like gnomon or full sail or DAVE school. Or go to a unviersity like SVA or Pratt which do try to explain things in ways a creative mind can actually use.
    please power off before disconnecting connecting connectors

  10. #40
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stooch View Post
    you can also find them right here on the forums. just make a post criticising newtek.
    yeah... sure... I think there are tacts on how to give critique as well. I'm starting to think that some users have mixed up the difference between being polite and kissing buts (HUGE difference imho). Strangely enough, being polite when giving critique works REALLY well in real life, so I try to practise that on forums as well.
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  11. #41

    more words

    Glad I did the WIP part, just wished I hadn't actually submitted. Bad move -All is Vanity.

    My experience at college was all pretty good. Went to a state university that was okay. When I first started as a freshman along time ago, I was living at home and even under these circumstances had over a thousand dollars in grants left when all was paid for.

    Of course, in those days people could make so much that many just dropped out because they were bored. I did the same, but not for those reasons. Went back about 10 years ago and took up where I left off. Things were not as easy but even still, the last term I did a internship and so had enough left over from the grants and bought Lightwave.

    As far as technical knowledge is concerned, we were always amazed at how little of software the lecturers knew. But one day in the last year, heard this class going in the computer lab (someone in the faculty had decided to get a teacher from the tech school or something) with this guy going over all sorts of commands and trivial detail about running adobe Illustrator. Boy that was really the end of that idea in my mind.

    But all in all think 3rd level education, these universities, are really some of the greatest institutions created by man, that is, next to hospitals etc.The brain power for everything we have starts here. The days of De Vinci and people like the Wright Brothers are gone from this over complex world. All is Vanity.
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  12. #42
    Registered User adamredwoods's Avatar
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    Go to a technical school to learn Maya to make an image.

    Go to a design college to learn to make an image look good.

    Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.
    // To draw is to think and discover.

  13. #43
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    HAHA! That's about right adamredwoods.

    -Tech
    -Design
    -Spirit (Lots of writing and soul searching in the name of creativity).

    Though I would probably do all of these things simultaneously.
    All that is powerful or long standing is first conceived in the imagination; supported by the hope of possibility and then made manifest in our commitment of our current physical reality.

  14. #44
    Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.
    a good quotable quote. i agree, however not completely on the mark. there are numerous artists (and writers) who were not educated and yet had great heart.

    'education' can mean education in general, education in life. you can go to all the schools and still not have an education, still not be sensitive, or know how to think.


    Look at the images in Newtek's own gallery.. or the most successful images on CGTalk.com. The ones that are the most successful (note - success does not equal a positive emotion upon seeing the image! Success can also be measured if people hate the image) will ALL be telling some sort of story.
    that's what you want to think. but i think otherwise when i recall all of the great writers, poets, and even artists who have died without a measure of 'success' - not even recognition. and i'm so sure that many a great writer, poet, or artist is dying now as we speak. we're just too busy putting up eye-blowing, mouth-watering, socially-dependent, stereotypical CG images in our web page front banners for us to notice.


    i agree, for the most part, about your concept of Story. but i find the references to cgtalk-esque images to serve as an example of Story a bit anti-climactic... at least for me.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  15. #45
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamredwoods View Post
    Go to a technical school to learn Maya to make an image.

    Go to a design college to learn to make an image look good.

    Go to a university and learn why you should make an image in the first place.
    I doubt the 3rd one. For many professions, a University might work fine...as applied sciences may become useful. Again, it's ALL about obtaining knowledge that you can build upon and CONTINUE to use. But much of that is wasted time, effort and money for some career fields, as it will likely be soon forgotten and go unused. A broad liberal education may be a wonderful thing, if it's free...but if you are straddled with a mountain of debt, you have to ask yourself the honest question..."WHY"...why am I still paying 10 yrs later for frivilous courses I was forced to take, and didn't need at all?

    Universities ought to, instead of painting requirements for students with a broad brush, instead taylor EVERY single course toward the goal of preparing the student for the job market. For example, even in private art colleges, speech/public speaking is a requirement. And because verbal communication skills are important in this field, that's very understandable.

    Nevertheless, who would pay $50,000+for 4yrs of just general education requirements...so that they would have this diverse knowledge (again, that won't buy them a cup of coffee)? No...the students objective is not to fill their 4yrs with fluff, but to get past the fluff as quickly as possible so that they can begin to focus on CAREER training. When fluff is free, then perhaps you have a point. But until then, it's a colossal waste, with an extremely miniscule return on the (hefty) investment.

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