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Thread: LIGHTWAVE CONTEST and "THAT" STIGMA

  1. #61
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    You see, Newtek is probably not really that interested in the high-end market (nice that LW is used there) but the hobbyists and lower-end companys are their target - at least their main target.
    Not true at all...

    ...don't know if I'm allowed to say anything more, but I'll give a hint...

    Their (the LW-developers) visit to Zoic is far from the only place they will visit and talk to during the coming week(s)...
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  2. #62
    Super Member SplineGod's Avatar
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    Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
    What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations. There are more appropriate venues to show off student work, contest winners etc. then at siggraph. When your competitors are showing off what appears to be 'higher end" work then thats what you have to try and match.
    I do agree that there are cartoony things that can be shown off like Shrek, incredibles etc but NONE of the cartoony stuff Newtek shows off in their demos (Dave school, Dr Suess etc) does nothing more then give the impression that this is all LW is capable of producing. Again, siggraph is a show where youre trying to convice people to buy your software.

    I know from personal experience that Newtek has sent people to visit studios in the past. In the end is seems that
    little has come from such meetings.

  3. #63
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter2999 View Post
    Two backhanded comments towards the DAVE School so far in this thread.

    'Fraid I won't let that slide.
    Why does it have to be a personal attack for someone to state the utterly obvious...that student work in general will not compare to work by people who are well past that stage of development and have years of industry experience? That's a no brainer.

    I can see why Proton would want to help promote the DAVE school, and probably believes demonstrating their work helps promote LW in kind. However, Larry Shultz has a very good point about Newtek using student material to demonstrate to professionals what they too can do if they buy a seat of LW. Kind of patronizing in some small sense, to tell professionals that they can do just as impressive work as the student's if they add LW to their pipeline.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod View Post
    Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
    What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations. There are more appropriate venues to show off student work, contest winners etc. then at siggraph. When your competitors are showing off what appears to be 'higher end" work then thats what you have to try and match.
    I do agree that there are cartoony things that can be shown off like Shrek, incredibles etc but NONE of the cartoony stuff Newtek shows off in their demos (Dave school, Dr Suess etc) does nothing more then give the impression that this is all LW is capable of producing. Again, siggraph is a show where youre trying to convice people to buy your software.

    I know from personal experience that Newtek has sent people to visit studios in the past. In the end is seems that
    little has come from such meetings.


    Yeah well, have to disagree with you Larry.

    The contest was a great idea. I want to see it again and I am sure that next year will be better. And I think it is a pretty cool venue.

    But I don't think it should be the only thing they show. And I am not in the circles you hang with so I can't comment on the other stuff you are saying because I am not there.

    Those are just my comments about he contest. It is great, siggy is fine for it, it will get better especially the amount of attention it got.

    I also see that it sends another message to common people. That NT is interesting in giving back to the community. And time and time again yo hear how much the community is a part of people decision to go with LW.

    Not every seat in LW is and will ever be a professional in the field you hang with. Nor will it be with every artist and filmmaker I hang with.

    This is why marketing professionals should research and make this call not individuals like you our me with their opinions - only.

    It should go by broad numbers not individual perspectives alone.

    And you can not really define "best work forward" when there is a broad level of interest in the field. I would say that the demo real in one way or another covered most if not all of those interests. But I do agree it should not be the end all of it. But including it and giving a nod to us is a great thing for NT to do and that will sell seats.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 08-17-2008 at 10:54 PM.

  5. #65
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealist. View Post
    Not every seat in LW is and will ever be a professional in the field you hang with. Nor will it be with every artist and filmmaker I hang with.

    This is why marketing professionals should research and make this call not individuals like you our me with their opinions - only.

    It should go by broad numbers not individual perspectives alone.

    And you can not really define "best work forward" when there is a broad level of interest in the field.
    A $900 dollar application...even though it's a low price for the market, is still not aimed at the Hobby market. That would fall to Blender, TrueSpace 3D (now free), or Hexagon, etc.
    A $900 application of any sort is aimed directly at the PROFESSIONAL market.
    Autodesk sponsors student competitions all the time...but that doesn't mean they put that work on display during the marketing mecca, called Siggraph, each year.
    The whole point of having a Demo Reel is to promote your ability to do work at the SAME level that the prospective employer/client is used to.

  6. #66
    Running at 29.97 fps Titus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoryC View Post
    Maybe they don't have the relationships with the studios that the other companies do or maybe the usage comes with a hefty fee that Newtek can't justify in their budget...
    Alias used to invite all their customers to send their reels, it was some sort of a honor to be included. If NewTek invited me I'm sure it could be an honor also, don't know if something on my reel is worthy enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoryC View Post
    I don't try to figure them out anymore.
    Me neither.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    A $900 dollar application...even though it's a low price for the market, is still not aimed at the Hobby market. That would fall to Blender, TrueSpace 3D (now free), or Hexagon, etc.
    A $900 application of any sort is aimed directly at the PROFESSIONAL market.
    Autodesk sponsors student competitions all the time...but that doesn't mean they put that work on display during the marketing mecca, called Siggraph, each year.
    The whole point of having a Demo Reel is to promote your ability to do work at the SAME level that the prospective employer/client is used to.
    By actual numbers I'd say LW falls actually at the lower 1/3 or more below the average professional-level software.

    But we can say it falls in the middle.

    Blender is not a hobby software even if it is free.

    Thing is I agree, I don't think a demo reel from a contest alone is what should be shown. I think it should be included and I like the venue.

    But also the reality is that many hobbyists as well as students and professionals use Lightwave. At a 900 price point that is is exactly what makes it attractive to a wide range of customers.

    It is definitely not a price point aimed only at the professional market. That is exactly the crux of the continued argument about LightWave in the first place. That it is really not up to professional standards in many ways. In many ways it is in some it is not. But the rebuttal to that is always, "It is only 900. After all what can you expect?".

    Regarding marketing again. The broad numbers are the key, not personal conviction.

  8. #68
    Super Member SplineGod's Avatar
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    Rich,
    I understand where youre coming from. Its just that Ive seen too many people both professional LW users and potential LW users get put off by the demonstrations.
    Its really no different as I said before then what you put on a demo reel. It should be only your best material. No matter how good you are or how good your tools are if you only show work that is "perceived' as low end then thats what you or your software is going to be labeled. I dont agree with it but its just the way things are. This is especially true when you are competing with the 'big boys' in the industry. In the case of siggraph you have one chance a year to convince people that your software is worth buying.
    To me it has nothing to do about how good the contest entries were or how good the DAVE school is. In THIS particular venue I dont think showing off such things is going to sell any seats of LW. I just know from being there and talking to others that people are mostly put off by it and I know that Newtek has lost sales because of it. Many professionals I know and work with feel that this sort of marketing tack by Newtek is whats going to kill LW in the end, not the lack of development. You have to remember that perception is everything.
    Newtek used to have other venues where I think showing off contents entries of Dave school material is more appropriate. Newtek used to sponsor training tours, Wavey Awards and Newtek Day in LA. Those were far more appropriate places IMO to show off such things. I havent seen NT sponsor anything like this in a long time unfortunatly.

    Most hobbyist even tend to purchase 3d software because they feel that maybe they can produce
    that next babylon5 or a short film at some kind of professional level. Thats how I got into it
    and many others I know as well. Student work would have put me off.

    Personally I wish Newtek would figure out where they want to be.
    Last edited by SplineGod; 08-18-2008 at 12:16 AM.

  9. #69
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod View Post
    Again, siggraph is a show where you want to convince people that your software is capable or producing a certain quality of work.
    What you show or dont show is essentially your demo reel. You dont show anything that will make you look weak or sub professional. Ive attended siggraph for many years and the biggest complaint I have heard from long time LW professionals and non LW users is about the quality and professionalism of the demonstrations.
    A couple of guys from Cinematics here at Massive were at Siggraph and one of them visited NewTeks booth 3 times. He said that NewTek, once again, demoed basic stuff, such as the symetry tool in Modeler.

    WTF?
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  10. #70
    Cool Larry,

    Thanks for the other perspective.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter2999 View Post
    Two backhanded comments towards the DAVE School so far in this thread.

    I have watched all of the project reels the school has turned out. I wish everything could be like the NASA Seals, MECHWARRIOR, SPECIAL DELIVERY, or the STAR TREK fan film they participated in.

    Fact is that the toy projects they do are a valid market. Have you people watched an episode of Veggi-Tales, or Playhouse Disney? I mean these are money machines and yet from an animation standpoint I'd consider them both sub-par.

    --

    Also, you need to stop slamming "toon" animation. SHREK 2, a toon, is number four on the top grossing movies of all time. I will agree that sophisticated effects and photoreal graphics help project a professional image to the general public. But if you want to be a professional in this field, as an animator, you can't insult feature animation (spelled TOON) and retain any sort of credibility with me.
    I REPEAT! Newtek is the King of the Toon venue. Newtek can literally over the next 8 months never display any toy/toon stuff and it will probably get associated with it. thats why I said 2 YEAR Marketing strategy.

    Shrek does have a sophisication and detail that sets itself from the average saturday morning or direct-to-dvd toon films. Heck they had to tone down Fiona because they reach "dead valley" photoreal look on her and her very detailed rig.

    When folks know you can do Photoreal, there is no question about "can you do the toon stuff", the other way around...not so much so. Lightwave has the photreal stuff but it needs to continue to market itself to game companies and other market places as relevant.

    Zbrush stuff is king. Its still outpaces GI & Radiosity discussions. I get young guys asking me all the time...can Lightwave do Zbrush. Yes. Well show me examples from companies using it. Ummmm hold on. With lo turn out, they mulled and start moving towards autodesk.

    Training:
    Gnomon and Digital Tutors have maya, max & xsi. No lw. (except Taron recently)
    Lw has Kurv studios, which is great but it seems to make a point about not associating with the other three in thier playground. Gnomon is the newbies playground.

    I am not insulting animation/toon.
    Mind you there are different levels of toon animation as well and the lower BULK end of the spectrum is Newtek's sandbox.

    Its just not the first thing to sell 3D.
    Sexy and photreal does and Newtek needs to project 24/7 like all the others do.

    As with Dave School: adopt Gnomon marketing.

    Gaming industry is the 9.5 Billion industry gorilla & elephant sitting in Newtek's kitchen unnoticed at time.
    Last edited by Julez4001; 08-18-2008 at 05:20 AM.

  12. #72
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    I think the winnig entry was very good and deserved to win. That being said, I have to agree that NT isn't projecting the most professional image of LW users with their current marketing plan.
    Andrewstopheles

  13. #73
    Robert Ireland bobakabob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewstopheles View Post
    I think the winnig entry was very good and deserved to win. That being said, I have to agree that NT isn't projecting the most professional image of LW users with their current marketing plan.
    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=29
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  14. #74
    Super Member SplineGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julez4001 View Post
    I REPEAT! Newtek is the King of the Toon venue. Newtek can literally over the next 8 months never display any toy/toon stuff and it will probably get associated with it. thats why I said 2 YEAR Marketing strategy.


    Training:
    Gnomon and Digital Tutors have maya, max & xsi. No lw. (except Taron recently)
    Lw has Kurv studios, which is great but it seems to make a point about not associating with the other three in thier playground. Gnomon is the newbies playground.

    I am not insulting animation/toon.
    Mind you there are different levels of toon animation as well and the lower BULK end of the spectrum is Newtek's sandbox.

    Its just not the first thing to sell 3D.
    Sexy and photreal does and Newtek needs to project 24/7 like all the others do.

    As with Dave School: adopt Gnomon marketing.

    Gaming industry is the 9.5 Billion industry gorilla & elephant sitting in Newtek's kitchen unnoticed at time.

    Even the problem with the 'toon' stuff demoed by Newtek that even that doesnt look professional. It amounts to simplistic characters with cel shading slapped on. The characters dont look like professionally done toon shaded characters DESIGNED to look good with cel shading applied. If youre going to show cel shading show some great examples that are well designed and professional looking rather then a simple model with a cel shader slapped on.

    Believe it or not KURV has tried to find good instructors for material that covers aspects of Max, Maya and XSI but has no much success. Finding people who know the software or aspects of it is one thing but finding those who can teach it and do so in a reasonable amount of time is another.

    As far as game stuff goes... Ive heard the promises for years. I was a lead artist for a video game company back in the early 90s and was courted by Newtek to work with them on developing and testing new game tools. It never happened and several times since then Ive seen other promises of game tools come and go and in the end the last serious game strategy was to offer discounts on LW to game developers.

  15. #75
    Man of many cells. shrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod View Post
    ...As far as game stuff goes... Ive heard the promises for years. I was a lead artist for a video game company back in the early 90s and was courted by Newtek to work with them on developing and testing new game tools. It never happened and several times since then Ive seen other promises of game tools come and go and in the end the last serious game strategy was to offer discounts on LW to game developers.
    I wondered if I was the only one that got mixed signals about that.
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