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Thread: Where are our new toys? :(

  1. #1
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    Where are our new toys? :(

    All of the other packages are running ahead with their new fluid simulations, hair solutions and soft- /hard-body techniques.

    I've been a fan of LW for a long time, but one thing that always disapointed me was the development in these new 'toys'. Particles are nice in combination with hypervoxels. But they can't satisfy me if I'm trying something cool. Our customers are more frequently asking for heavier effects, but although I want to do it, I just cant get the things out of Lightwave. The question pushes me more and more towards Maya / Softimage or 3DS Max. And that's a shame.

    With the development (and promises) of LW 9 I really saw things changing. Promises that the core of the program is completely rewritten to create future possibilities made me a happy VFX wannabe.

    I bought it as soon as it came out to check the revolutionary changes. What I discovered was very disapointing. Undo in Layout is still very (VERY) limited. This little thing showed me that the core hasn't been changed at all... I see this as a false promise!

    LW X couldn't deliver the needed next generation tools that other programs are already applying several versions long.

    With the future of film I project myself using LW only for modelling purposes (while ZBrush, Mudbox and Modo are developing very quickly)

    Why isn't there a new (standard) tool in LW providing Hair effects, I used the full version of Sasquatch but it cannot provide me the reality of real fur / hair. There are too many bumps on the road when you compare these simple things with the other packages.

    Why isn't there more development on fluids. Every time I have to create something like water or gasses (using realflow) I'm presented with (at most) a very fake and out of the simulation look (rendering with hypervoxels)

    Water is too heavy to render, Realflow is very nice, and it provides to a lot of packages. But LW can't seem to render water nicely (or give me some examples). It doesn't matter how hard I push my network, I always end up with hypervoxels not stretched as the simulation would like it to do. The volume-hypervoxels are quite ugly. I can't seem to get rid of all the individual the round balls (or stretched) even when pushing my Hypertexture to 500%

    I thought there was promised the ability to create 'flat' hypervoxels (picked that up in one of the early pressreleases before 9.0). It seemed I could do some tricks using that.

    I want to do effects, and lightwave has always been in the industry providing effects for film, but I fear that time is over due to the question of more realistic and heavier effects instead of the good old particle sparcles.

    Please, what is real in my story, and if I'm wrong about anything please prove it with moving examples.

    Thanks, hope LW turns out to be one of the best in the far future again (you have our support)

    Regards,

    Ruud Zeelenberg
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  2. #2
    Nothing ado about much Exception's Avatar
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    Are you in the open beta program? I suppose you are...

    I'm not saying anything about fluids, but are you claiming nothing's going on there? C'mon... I must be one of the most critical people on the board, and even I am impressed.

  3. #3
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    no I am not on the open beta (tried one time to enter but took too long)

    And yes, there is a lot going on, but compared to LW itself there are a lot of important changes, but compared to the market (all the other packages) LW is running with a limp leg.

    I would like to pull more out of future LW's than there is on the shell right now.
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  4. #4
    Working Monkey StereoMike's Avatar
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    My guess is, the big bundles from XSI, Maya etc are still more expensive than LW+ Fprime, Syflex, Realflow and Sasquatch (or any other hairsolution, there are some in development). And you can buy what ever you clients want at he time you need it (no money useless laying in the shelf).

    Mike
    Last edited by StereoMike; 01-07-2007 at 10:44 AM.
    If you are not paying for it, you’re not the customer; you’re the product being sold.

  5. #5
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    What I am saying is that when I buy lightwave and all the plugins that can provide the effects we need, LW still isn't capable of rendering those. Nice it has an integrated render engine, but all other programs are also delivered with a render enginge (no package you buy excludes that).

    Lightwave always has been the 1:1 competitor of 3DS Max. Also in their pricings. Max has become more expensive (or LW has become cheaper) But I don't see that as a benefit towards the users. If you want to offer a cheap program then bring it in various versions (like other programs do as well) This way a user can choose what version will fit his projects. (Why would this option be a problem?)

    Sasquatch is nice, but not more than that! It is merly a pixel filter, what creates some problems when rendering sertain scenes, (think about reflections).

    Develop something cool, something we can use in animation. something we can sell, we have to follow the market and their demands are increasing
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  6. #6
    Working Monkey StereoMike's Avatar
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    I'm not saying NT shouldn't add cool features. I just wanted to say, that if you need a LW based solution right now, there are severall tools you could add, that will widen LW's capabilities. And this way isn't that expensive compared to other packages. And why isn't LW capable of rendering those? In "The guardian" they rendered the state-of-the-art realflow-ocean with LW.
    Valid point about Sas being a pixelfilter, but as I said, there are some other tools in development.
    And you should think about joining the beta, there are some nice things cooking right now...

    Mike
    If you are not paying for it, you’re not the customer; you’re the product being sold.

  7. #7
    May the sauce be with you starbase1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StereoMike
    And you can buy what ever you clients want at he time you need it (no money useless laying in the shelf).

    Mike
    Ouch!

    Are you seriously suggesting going out and buying the package, sitting down to use it for the first time after you have accepted the work?
    Faith is the opposite of Intelligence.

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  8. #8
    Valiant NewTeKnight Matt's Avatar
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    To be honest, NewTek need to sort the basics out before adding new 'toys', which is what they are doing right now!
    UI / UX Designer @ NewTek
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    www.pixsim.co.uk : LightWave Video Tutorials & Tools


  9. #9
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    I agree with Matt. Although I'm saying things aren't really changing (that's what I think)

    I can see that the undo function isn't exactly what it supposed to be. You can undo a few times, but it's very limited. This shows (to my opinion) that the core is still the good old core like it used to be. Only with some adaptions so we could have some undo levels.

    If the foundation / the core of LW has changed some major changes would be visible in the workflow and reactions to my actions of the program.

    Hopefully LWX will be completely windows based (this LW still acts like that nice 4.0 version I could transfer on a single 1.4 MB diskette) This still feels like the limited DOS times.
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  10. #10
    Working Monkey StereoMike's Avatar
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    @ Starbase:
    1. I try to get the job, no matter if I can do it or not. If I'm not able to do it myself, I hand the parts I can't do over to people who can.
    2. I have only few but safe clients and get jobs from them very regulary (or frequently?). I can talk to them before a project starts and we can discuss the topics and techniques used. So I know what projects will come and I can buy some tools to adapt.
    You're right, if you get a job from a client the first time and have to do it in 2 weeks, then it makes no sense trying to get into realflow etc. (but fprime or kray should work in less time).
    Then I would hand it over to other people and see if I can make enough money to get the tool by myself.

    I guess ppl buy additional plugins if they have a use for it, Starbase. Do you buy realflow, cause "you never know when you need it"? Of course not, you buy it if your company has to deal with scenes that involve water.
    It makes no sense to buy it and wait for a miracle to happen

    Mike
    Last edited by StereoMike; 01-08-2007 at 05:25 AM.
    If you are not paying for it, you’re not the customer; you’re the product being sold.

  11. #11
    Red Mage Celshader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starbase1
    Ouch!

    Are you seriously suggesting going out and buying the package, sitting down to use it for the first time after you have accepted the work?
    Hey, I did that with Sasquatch for a freelance project in 2005. I had some experience with Sasquatch on a previous project, and I understood Saslite, but I did not truly learn Sasquatch until a client hired me to model/rig ankle-length wigs for some characters.

    Saslite proved inadequate for ankle-length wigs, so I bought Sasquatch for this one job. I ordered the plug-in online and was able to download and install it within one business day. The printed manual got shipped to me shortly thereafter. I learned what I needed to know within a few days (the Sasquatch manual is EXCELLENT), and the project paid for the cost of Sasquatch many times over.

    -+-

    I also learned DFX+ on-the-job in 2004. I got DFX+ for free with my LightWave 8 upgrade in 2003, but I didn't actually need it for anything, so I left it on the shelf. Then I got hired for pre-viz work in 2004, and my first task involved compositing. Since I was using my own equipment, I cracked open my DFX+ manual. I was up to speed within two days (the DFX+ manual is also EXCELLENT), and learned more and more about DFX+ as the project went on.

    -+-

    Come to think of it, I also learned Python and RealFlow4 scripting on-the-job in 2006. Heck, I learned REALFLOW on-the-job in 2005. RealFlow's a lot more of a pain to learn than a Worley plug-in, but I picked up the basics within a week.

    -+-

    I think StereoMike gives good advice for freelancers -- buy only what you need, as you need it.

    Many plug-ins and programs come with demos for folks who want to learn in advance, but folks don't have to buy this stuff in advance. From my experience, the one program that folks might want to take time to study whether or not they need it is the RealFlow demo -- that program has a STEEP learning curve. However, I suspect most other add-ons for LightWave can probably be learned on-the-job.
    Jen's 3D -- LightWave stuff.
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  12. #12
    Super Duper Member kopperdrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruud
    I agree with Matt. Although I'm saying things aren't really changing (that's what I think)

    I can see that the undo function isn't exactly what it supposed to be. You can undo a few times, but it's very limited. This shows (to my opinion) that the core is still the good old core like it used to be. Only with some adaptions so we could have some undo levels.

    If the foundation / the core of LW has changed some major changes would be visible in the workflow and reactions to my actions of the program.

    Hopefully LWX will be completely windows based (this LW still acts like that nice 4.0 version I could transfer on a single 1.4 MB diskette) This still feels like the limited DOS times.
    You should really try and get into the beta forums - there's some amazing stuff happening which will please me no end when it finally hits!

    To say things aren't changing but only knowing what the initial release of LW9 has by way of features is not really fair, especially as NT has constantly said over and over again that features will be rolled out over the 9.x development cycle.
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  13. #13
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    I know, I use 9.0 (but I'm sorry that I don't have time to play around with beta's as much as I would like to)

    I've spoken to NT Europe people on the IBC in Amsterdam about 9.2. But they didn't convince me that Lightwave is going to be on the same level 'again' as the other programs.

    I have always seen the quality in LW, but the last few years it's getting behind.

    Everybody can see that tricks like good clothing, good animation tools, nice fluids and nice hair-effects. Create something that will blast Lightwave into the 21st Century! Because I really think LW is loosing ground here..

    I appreciate the conversation though
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  14. #14
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    How do I enter the Beta forum? I'd like to see these revolutionary changes
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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  15. #15
    Registered User ruud's Avatar
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    I tried to enter but...

    ruud, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

    bla
    bla
    bla
    bla
    Ruud Zeelenberg

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