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Thread: Loss in Recorded Audio Level

  1. #1
    Between the Lines Dan Barnett's Avatar
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    Question Loss in Recorded Audio Level

    I have been trying to figure this one out.
    I am recording from VX-2000 into VT2 through a Makie and straight through also.
    Upon doing so my play back levels are lower than what I had started with in recording.
    I'm recording using just the mini plugs on the Toaster card. No SX-8 yet.
    Consequently any audio imported from another computer (music and what not) is just fine and usually needs to be turned down.

    Is there an AGC in the VX-2000 or the VT2?

    Anyone else experience this?
    Thank God for NewTek

    Dan Barnett

  2. #2
    What you need to do is play some stuff into the Makie, then let the feed go into the Toaster. Make sure that the Toaster can record that level now.

    Second-
    Hit the Solo buttons on your Mackie, only on the inputs that your Toaster is coming on. Tweak the audio mixer in the Toaster, until solo matches your orignal inputs (without solo).

    Everything on the Makie and the Toaster should start at unity.

    I hope I explained this right-
    Faraz Ahmed
    Faraz Ahmed - Amitrace
    www.Amitrace.com

  3. #3
    Newbie Member vip3dran's Avatar
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    Dan,

    Another thing to check is to make sure you are preserving the balanced or unbalanced chain with your audio. T2's inputs are balanced. Make sure the output from your deck is balanced and when hooking up to your Mackie board, make sure you are going into balanced inputs. Make sure the Main Outs from the Mackie are balanced too.

  4. #4
    Newbie Member vip3dran's Avatar
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    Clarification:
    T2's mini inputs, 3.5mm (as you are using them) are balanced. With BOB you have a selection of balanced or unbalanced inputs/outputs.

  5. #5
    Grizzled Veteran jcupp's Avatar
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    Build 3890 records 6dB lower than you think.

    Play back a file with peaks at -0dB Full Scale. A file ripped from a comercial pop CD or sine wave built in Soundforge works.

    Note where the signal hits on the main meter.

    Record a clip, hitting the same place on the meter.

    Look at the waveform with Sound Forge or Cooledit.

    Not that the peaks are at -6dB.

    This doesn't appear to be a 'bug' but a design decision on the part of NewTek.
    -Jeff


    My TriCaster Blog
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    Gear Used: TC1, TC 8000, TC 460, TC Mini 4i, 3Play Mini, 3Play 4800, TS 100, TS 4000

  6. #6
    We've found that it records 6db low also. My boss was shocked (just today actually) when he discovered that not only does it record low but the audio is unbalanced. They couldn't imagine why there was so much audio trouble and why the toaster doesn't allow third party audio cards. Editing would be much happier if newtek at least let us record at the exact level coming in. Then there are also those unused AES/EBU inputs on my SDI card looking rather forlorn. When are they going to be activated?

    Regards,

    Joel Slack
    Media Department, New Life Christian Fellowship

  7. #7
    Between the Lines Dan Barnett's Avatar
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    Smile

    Thank you one and all!
    Now that we have solved that particular problem.... hey, what can you say.
    Anyway I understand how things are working. Now, I know what direction to take this issue in.
    If I come up with a solution I will let you know.
    Thank God for NewTek

    Dan Barnett

  8. #8
    I take my VT with 2 lumps JReble's Avatar
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    I was watching this topic to see if someone else would note the 6db loss in recorded audio. I've known about this for some time and it seemed that only a few users were willing to confirm it. From past discussion on the issue, I was of the understanding that it was in fact a glitch or it was compensating for a glitch and was not an intended feature.

    Whatever the reason, it is a reality that the recorded audio is lower than the audio that runs through the Toaster. This is completely unacceptable and I have been waiting patiently for a new build that returned our ability to maintain unity audio levels throughout the system.

    The audio capabilities have been all over the place with the Toaster. In the beginning the actual audio levels were pretty close to unity, but none of the level meters in various applications were of any use. Then there were several attempts to make the level meters more representative of the actual signal, and I'm sure a lot of other audio related issues were addressed. Now it seems the meters are pretty funtional, but the recorded level is incorrect.

    I would gladly take the audio functions we had in the first build over what we have now. I can ignore some stupid GUI audio meters that are completely incorrect, but it's much harder to ignore the low audio levels on recorded materials. Unity is just another word for accurate. Right now, things are not in unity and it needs to be fixed.

  9. #9
    I have been fighting with the same issue for over a year now. I am running the current build and have never been able to get out what I put into the toaster, as far as audio is concerned. In addition to the appx 6db loss, I am also dealing with an unexplained firewire issue in which the l/r channels are reversed upon capture. I, too, think the audio section of this fine machine needs some serious attention including a return to unity and the ability to do some basic audio processing like other applications.

    There...my 2 cents worth...and worth every penny !

  10. #10
    Dr. Toast Blaine Holm's Avatar
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    this does answer some questions we have been having for a while now, and at least I'm not going crazy...

    ...at least I'm not crazy over this, jury is still out on everything else... :
    Blaine Holm
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  11. #11
    Newbie Member
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    to quote:
    "Clarification:
    T2's mini inputs, 3.5mm (as you are using them) are balanced. With BOB you have a selection of balanced or unbalanced inputs/outputs."

    Are you certain T2's mini inputs are balanced ?
    Can't see how with a stereo cable terminating in a mini-plug.

  12. #12
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    No, it's unbalanced

    Just to clarify:

    The T[2]'s mini-plug audio inputs are UNBALANCED.

    And the -6dB recording level was an intentional design decision.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  13. #13
    I take my VT with 2 lumps JReble's Avatar
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    No offense Eugene, but I'd like to have that from Newtek themselves. I don't doubt the mini-pin connections are unbalanced despite numerous claims to the contrary, but the 6db loss is another issue.

    If somebody intended the T2 to lose 6db of level whenever you record, it can only be due to a bigger problem that would require some awful attempt like that to compensate for it. Whatever the reason, this is wrong. If the T2 is going to route audio through the system in a switcher/mixer/live environment, then it MUST maintain the same level on its own recordings that it routes through the system. No person in their right mind would accept a recording device that shows 0db levels feeding into it, but reproduces a -6db signal upon playback.

    I've never heard anything about this being intentional from Newtek. In fact they aknowledged to me that this was an issue that would be corrected many weeks ago.

  14. #14
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    Smile Possible audio level workaround

    I experienced the same problem with audio levels through the RCA inputs; confirmed when I captured something from my Digital8 deck and it played back normal. This lead me to a workaround for anyone who has a MiniDV or Digital8 deck/transcoder. I am now running my video source (in this case, a DVD player) into the digital deck where it converts it to a digital signal. When I capture this signal, it plays back perfectly. I hope this might help someone else out there!

    Jeff

  15. #15
    Mini jack/plug is by nature an unbalanced connectior....

    My hope is that Newtek can hunt down and steal a talented audio programmer from the Sound Forge Team who is increasingly dissatisfied with the Sony Corporate environment!

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