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Thread: David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkmouse View Post
    Steve, you call these people trolls, (admittedly usually with a smiley). And, being a mod on another forum much bigger than this, I feel your pain. But they're not. They are/were loyal paying customers who'd invested a lot of time, money, and even "love" in LW, and I suspect that if they could they would still be buying and using LW. These are your best customers, they know the work flows/arounds, they can get things done and help others.

    But no. Label them troublemakers and trolls, refuse to communicate, don't bother addressing the many issues they've brought up, and just hope they'll go away. That's a six year old's behaviour.
    Fully agree.

    I've not noticed real trolling or provocation in this forum. Yes, some negativity, honest feedback and comments, product comparison and frustration but also constructive criticism and credit where credit is due from ex or current LW users (guilty of those myself). There are issues in LW that were brought up countless times that could be fixed with minimal development effort (in my opinion and experience as developer, "low hanging fruits"), but they are ignored for years. Some of us have provided extensive lists of missing, buggy or incomplete features for future improvements. These so called "trolls" are customers, have helped other LW users, provided tutorials and submitted bugs in the past and present but are using other applications as well and want LW to improve.

    What I notice are a very few die hard fanboys that seem to be blind to everything happening around them and defend LW when any criticism comes up and get offensive which in some cases result in personal attacks. Developers and product management that don't seem to listen but instead ignore the forum all together and stick their heads in the sand. Total silence for months. No roadmap or tech previews that would raise the interest for future releases but misleading information about the current version (Hydra implementation / geometry engine performance, point/poly/edge awareness in Layout, Metamorphic optimizations). Forum moderation with too many subjective and personal remarks without providing any expertise. Chuck's involvement in the forum is very positive and a step forward though in my opinion.
    Last edited by Marander; 04-28-2019 at 03:22 AM.

  2. #47

    pinkmouse So, looking at that hair style, you made that, what, 1983?
    close enough  

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  3. #48
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkmouse View Post
    you call these people trolls, (admittedly usually with a smiley).
    Actually, I virtually never use epithets - with or without a smiley ... though some others here do. Forced to define a "troll", I'd say it was someone who is a sniper, with no real interest here other than popping up occasionally to post provocative, very often abusive and personal remarks (frequently to or about other forum members. In some cases, it has appeared to me that the true problem is revealed when anyone at all fails to sufficiently worship at their altar). And - for the record - I don't consider anyone currently here to be in that group.

    Edit: I suppose there is at least one sub-species, comprised of those who have long since turned to other solutions yet who pop up in here from time to time to try to wedge a promo for their current tool into some discussion or other. These, I would say, are a more benign form, and do not have the same ego/abuse issues, and thus - while unwelcome - are less objectionable.

    When they do appear, I will sometimes engage them - initially to encourage them to use more moderate ways to express their views; less often, to take issue with any actual point they might be seeming to make (I really don't have any issue with honest criticism, but will sometimes correct something I know with certainty to be a factual error or misrepresentation). I'd much prefer that they self-moderate, as any adult should be capable of doing. A person really has to go out of their way to get the old heave-ho.

    (I can't resist pointing out that it always entertains me when these individuals, whose posts are typically laced with vitriol, turn into little girls whose tender feelings have been hurt whenever they are reigned in with the least bit of firmness. It would be fair to say that I have no sympathy for those who dish it out by the truckload but can't handle the slightest push-back.)

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkmouse View Post
    Is it that LW3DG don't actually listen, respond or communicate to its user base? I've seen this many times on other user forums, for S/W, H/W, games and Kickstarters. The fora that feel productive, friendly and positive are the ones where users feel involved and the host company responds, gives help and is open with where they are going and problems they're having. The companies that don't, well, here we are.
    I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.
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  4. #49
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    )

    I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.

    Great..more time to develop things like modeling tools in Layout faster since they do not spend time in here
    But occasionally..they should have someone monitoring the discussion with a special user filter, meaning listening to the technical issues and disregard the parts about marketing or the future of lightwave etc.
    Listening to marketing suggestions is something for the other staff members I reckon.

  5. #50
    A.K.A "The Silver Fox" Gungho3D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    Nah, no worries. Your reply is exactly what I meant when I wrote "which is doubtless what some are afraid of".
    Thanks Steve

    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    This doesn't mean one must always tell all he knows, ... when I say "Don't expect LW news immediately, because at the moment no-one really knows what (if anything) the change in ownership will mean", I do not do so without good reason. I'm not going to provide details, which wouldn't be particularly helpful anyway - but I never make affirmative statements without a basis for doing so.
    Fully understood - like I said, I have no expectation for anyone at New-NT to magic up details which are as-yet-unknown out of thin air, nor, for that matter, to prematurely divulge anything still under wraps. That's the part which is normal.

    The part which continues to cause angst is … well, 'nuf said specific to that already.

  6. #51
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    what pinkmouse said

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    I won't quibble with any of that, much less contend that more couldn't have been done on our side. I will point out, in defense of devs in particular, that the problem has not been entirely one-sided. It appears to me that devs have mostly turned away from the forums for the same reason that many others sought out other, shall we say, less volatile venues.
    The issue is that Newtek needs people OTHER than the devs doing outreach and getting involved in the forums. I know enough programmers to know that this sort of thing is not typically a forte. Let them solve the technical problems. It is great that chuck appears reasonably often to provide official statements, but what is missing is a liason between the users and the devs. We can either shout at each other on the forum or file feature requests, but we don’t ultimately know who we are talking to or who is listening. There needs to be someone who knows what the roadmap looks like and but also has the time and temperament, and understanding of how people actually use the tools to engage with a bunch of cantankerous customers and get the good ideas to the right devs.

  8. #53
    In all my criticism of NT, especially in the last few years, it never really had much to do with developers. Personally I believe the developers of LW, past and present are a talented group of people who seem to feel passion about the work they do. So much to your point about your defense of the developers Steve, I don't think its needed. Any missteps which may have happened in LW development I think are largely at the feet of NT's support of LW, or lack there of and failing to provide a strong direction/roadmap of just what was trying to be accomplished with LW.

    And yes, I may be one of the ones who have moved on as I haven't been interested in the last few versions of LW, but I am genuinely curious about any development news as I had been so invested in LW for years.

  9. #54
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Personally I believe the developers of LW, past and present are a talented group of people who seem to feel passion about the work they do. So much to your point about your defense of the developers Steve, I don't think its needed.
    And yet it does seem necessary, in view of the quote below ... which is why I made that particular point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Developers and product management that don't seem to listen but instead ignore the forum all together and stick their heads in the sand.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    The issue is that Newtek needs people OTHER than the devs doing outreach and getting involved in the forums. I know enough programmers to know that this sort of thing is not typically a forte. Let them solve the technical problems. It is great that chuck appears reasonably often to provide official statements, but what is missing is a liason between the users and the devs. We can either shout at each other on the forum or file feature requests, but we don’t ultimately know who we are talking to or who is listening. There needs to be someone who knows what the roadmap looks like and but also has the time and temperament, and understanding of how people actually use the tools to engage with a bunch of cantankerous customers and get the good ideas to the right devs.
    “always get a roadmap”

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    And yet it does seem necessary, in view of the quote below ... which is why I made that particular point.
    In the absence of explicit accountable people/positions and responsive communication channels, though, it really isn't surprising at all. If Newtek wants to fix the problem, the most efficient way to do so is simply to provide clear indication of who they _should_ be faulting, and who they should escalate to when "blind communications" with CS aren't working. In the absence of that, of COURSE customers are going to fault the wrong people.

    Another point to note is that complaining about customers faulting the wrong people, without actually giving them the proper people to fault or hold accountable, is akin to telling customers to "just be quiet". Similarly, saying stuff like "upper mgmt is responsible for everything" is little different from the customer viewpoint, because it's been shown quite clear historically that there will not be any sort of reliable, responsive, ongoing communications channel between customers and Newtek upper mgmt.

    Put more bluntly, don't expect customers to "get it right" w.r.t. who's accountable for what, when there's never been any explicit provision of a better or more appropriate option given.
    Last edited by jwiede; 04-28-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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  12. #57
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    In the absence of explicit accountable people/positions and responsive communication channels, though, it really isn't surprising at all. If Newtek wants to fix the problem, the most efficient way to do so is simply to provide clear indication of who they _should_ be faulting, and who they should escalate to when "blind communications" with CS aren't working.
    Let's allow, for obvious reasons, that communication could be improved, and that at times this has been even more true. And one might wonder whether it will improve now, or ever.

    To your point, though - it can be argued that everything and anything untoward that befalls any project, product or company is a management problem. Insufficient resources? Poor planning? Product not explained or positioned well? Too many meetings, hurricanes, deaths, divorce, departures, dog ate my homework? All management failures.

    Any company needs to look closely at such things internally, along with countless other business factors. But on this planet at least, the 'inside' details and participants are made public vanishingly seldom - and often for good reasons. So I doubt you can hope for the publishing of a 'table of blame' with contact information.

    Yes, absent such information, speculation arises. In my experience this is a) virtually unavoidable, and b) often spectacularly wrong. Nevertheless, for the reason given above (among others) you will not usually find me gainsaying or deflecting critical comments directed toward NewTek or LW3DG policy or direction - with rare exceptions where I know some w.a.g. to be hopelessly mistaken and it seems a kindness to put it out of its misery; or where civility and/or professionalism has been totally thrown out the window; or the conversation has devolved to endless circular harping to no practical purpose; or, thankfully still less commonly, it becomes clear that the motivation for the criticism is other than an attempt to improve matters. The continued existence of this thread and others of a similar nature historically should give ample testimony to that fact.

    This leaves open the question 'Who exactly can we blame then, if we are unhappy?' You can agree or disagree with the premise of ultimate management responsibility above. I'm not entirely certain that public flogging is really much of a solution for anything, but some seem to enjoy it. Some might argue it's counterproductive, and at some point I suppose we run up against the fact that this is not what the forums are for (their stated purpose being "to facilitate professional and civil discourse regarding the use of NewTek products by those who own them". Even so, I think anyone would be hard-pressed to take substantial issue with the basic premise of this thread.

    So, all I said is basically 'Let's not fault the devs'. Some might wish to use that as a springboard, but I don't think many here actually disagree with my point.
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  13. #58
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    I find it impossible to put into words how very tedious i find this. But, suffice to say. very tedious...

    It's sort of boring,monotonous,dull,uninteresting,unexciting,un varied,soul-destroying,humdrum,mundane,wearisome,tiresome,life less,colourless,uninspired,flat,plodding,banal,vap id,insipid,bland,lacklustre,laborious,samey and seemingly endless...
    Last edited by PetGerbil; 04-28-2019 at 05:53 PM.

  14. #59
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetGerbil View Post
    I find it impossible to put into words how very tedious i find this.
    Top marks for your attempt, nonetheless!
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  15. #60
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    Luckily dictionary dot com had a few suggestions.

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