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Thread: David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?

  1. #166
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.
    That's true. Not to speak for Chuck, but I'm swamped with other things, and - while monitoring this thread - have simply been inclined to let it meander naturally as those involved weary of one aspect or another in turn.
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  2. #167

    i'm glad we got to discuss it though, since this discussion went deeper into comparing the misc features.

    for now, over and out.



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  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Sigh. Gar26lw, that is a such a tired argument and just a falsehood. It also so incredibly generalized to simply say, oh modeler is faster to so something than another app. Maybe that's true for you because you simply don't know those other apps, and if you do, likely not as well as you know modeler because you're likely not spent the time or due diligence to vet that statement you're making. I can assure you, that is just ignorance talking (as in lack of knowing). I know that because I believed that noise at one time also. What you're not factoring in with such a statement are things like how much faster other apps are in terms of their modeling performance, their workflows or even their ability to change their minds about a particular modeling operation at any point during the modeling. What's faster, rebuilding a part of an object because its not working out, or changing some settings like you can in a procedural method? Is it faster to generate a bunch of polygon duplicates or is it faster to work with modeling instances which change as you change the base shape in various array options. Modeler is no faster or slower than working in any other type of app that I've encounted. However, the lack of options as well as the lack of flexibility in workflow are just hinderances to working efficiently. So faster? Not overall by any means.
    nah, I use the other apps, all of them in prolonged periods of production apart from blender, which I am considering atm. Don't presume/assume.

    thankyou for defining ignorance.

  4. #169
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    nah, I use the other apps, all of them in prolonged periods of production apart from blender, which I am considering atm.
    Yet you mention all the cases where Modeler is so much faster, without actually specifying even a single verifiable scenario or measurable workflow. Essentially you're making an empty, unverifiable claim with no discernable basis -- it's the argumentative equivalent" of a "friend of a friend" story.

    Come up with examples that are non-trivial complexity, workflow significant, plus objectively and reliably measurable, and then your argument will have a viable basis.
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  5. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
    you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.

    i still find that even within focus of dev in layout? it is the main problem with lightwave.
    no snapping, no live array tools, no industry standard qwerty ‘maya’ shortcuts, no decent painting tools, no gpu support, no point, poly and edge support, no good curve support and deformations. it’s still the area that needs focus.
    For those who want proper snapping then LWCAD is needed to do that. I don't think I would still be using Lightwave if it wasn't for LWCAD.
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  6. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Yet you mention all the cases where Modeler is so much faster, without actually specifying even a single verifiable scenario or measurable workflow. Essentially you're making an empty, unverifiable claim with no discernable basis -- it's the argumentative equivalent" of a "friend of a friend" story.

    Come up with examples that are non-trivial complexity, workflow significant, plus objectively and reliably measurable, and then your argument will have a viable basis.
    Not much point in debating it. Its the same counterpoint that's always used when discussing why Modeler has stagnated over the last 20 years. Oh, but its so much quicker is the argument. Because there is nothing else to point out as a benefit. And the reason its seen as 'quick' is because its an incredibly outdated and simple toolset. There's no item mode to stumble on, its raw editing of points, polygons and edges(sort of on that last one), there are no procedural methods to add to the overhead or learning, it's entirely isolated from any type of system functionalty…. it is a raw point, edge and polygon pusher. It has no benefits that every other app out there provides. That's why it is argued as being quick. Because of its extreme limitations.

    Agree Nicholas, its the only thing that kept me in modeler the last few years I had LightWave.

  7. #172
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Exactly. Complexity comes at a price. LW is faster and less clicky than Modo, Max and Blender...at least with LW Cad, 3rd Powers suite and TrueArt tools like EasySplit. LW 2019 let's you model with nothing but hotkeys and fast, fluid Wacom strokes on a beautiful 4k screen or dual screens. It's like creating on an endless canvas with the polygons-like-pixels layers providing "poorman nondestructive" space to work and play and experiment. Modo comes close but not once LW Cad, 3rd Powers and 4k monitors come into play.

    The UV tools are sadly outdated and the lack of proceduralism makes Modeler far less flexible but LW developers are aware. We can only hope LW 2020 at long last modernizes Modeler. LW team is no doubt hard at work on something!

    In short, I still love Modeling in Lightwave but it would be foolish not to use or at least evaluate other tools. Lightwave can be used alongside other packages relatively seamlessly thanks to Origami Digital.

  8. #173
    That's what i'm saying, there really isn't a price for that complexity. That's just the the myth I'm talking about and the line people give when you use LW as to why you would use tools that literally hinge on third party tools which, given past history, could go away at any point. "I don't have to worry about that extra complexity and so that makes working in modeler fast". The truth is, the lack of complexity has driven most of the serious users of LW away. Being simple and limited doesn't make you faster, it just makes you feel faster because you come to think those things are unnecessary. Yet its where things have been for some time and moving ever further in that direction all the time.
    Every app is able to be driven with hotkeys, used on dual monitors, work on wacoms, most scale up fine. Yes, Modo needs to add resolution scaling, but it already can be used on 4k monitors, there are just some issues that scaling would address. Modo does most everything native that third powers offers and I'd say even better since things like conforming a mesh or Mesh Fusion or just regular booleans are procedural tools so infinitely more flexible which can be changed or edited at any time. Modo also offers a lot of what LWCAD does (as does Blender), there are only a few tools that I really miss.

  9. #174

    i was done with this thread, but as far as modeling and speed, someone should make several side-by-side videos,
    using different factors.
    add a stopwatch.

    only then will you get close to the "true /undeniable" result


    ok, mic out, again...

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  10. #175
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    Standard Copy/paste between layers and dead simple scratch layers make working in modeler more like working in illustrator or photoshop than typical 3D apps which for some people, myself included, feels very fast and FEELING fast is important. Is it objectively faster than blender or other apps with the standard scene vs object mode paradigm? Probably not (although it probably isn’t really a whole heck of a lot slower either in many cases) and it is hard to make a good argument that it is worth the trade offs lightwave users are forced to make, but to poo poo others appreciation of the advantages of the modeler way of working, and simplicity IS an advantage, is silly.

    To put it another way: by all rights, based on features alone, modeler SHOULD have been relegated to the trash heap of history a decade ago and yet it keeps stubbornly trudging along doing things it’s own backwards way. Maybe it’s NOT due to lightwave users ignorance. MAYBE it is due to some qualities that it has that other software doesn’t have. Lightwave users don’t have to justify why they enjoy using modeler any more than an artist has to defend his choice of paintbrush.

  11. #176
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Modeller is still very useful to me too... When I've used 3dsmax for decades, I ALWAYS jump back to LightWave for the trickier stuff.
    Bits and pieces that need modelling to exact scales is really frickin difficult in 3dsmax, maintaining a perfect mesh is also quite tricky in Max too.
    Another thing... The round edges tools are better in LightWave, even if they can be a little bit finicky about their use, and Modeller is absolutely brilliant for preparing stuff to 3d print. It's SO much easier to find flaws in meshes and fix them up.
    3ds max has actual built in tools to help fix a 3d model, it'll even highlight the edges or polygons at fault, but actually fixing them is just so much faster in LightWave than in 3ds Max.

    I totally get that Modeller is just faster than some other apps, especially if you're used to the way it works.

    Not sure why some of you guys still even come here. All you literally do is turn every thread into one where LightWave users HAVE to explain why it's being used... This is a LightWave forum you know!!! Go back to your blender or Modo forum if there's nothing productive or positive coming from being here.
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  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris S. (Fez) View Post
    Exactly. Complexity comes at a price. LW is faster and less clicky than Modo, Max and Blender...at least with LW Cad, 3rd Powers suite and TrueArt tools like EasySplit. LW 2019 let's you model with nothing but hotkeys and fast, fluid Wacom strokes on a beautiful 4k screen or dual screens. It's like creating on an endless canvas with the polygons-like-pixels layers providing "poorman nondestructive" space to work and play and experiment. Modo comes close but not once LW Cad, 3rd Powers and 4k monitors come into play.

    The UV tools are sadly outdated and the lack of proceduralism makes Modeler far less flexible but LW developers are aware. We can only hope LW 2020 at long last modernizes Modeler. LW team is no doubt hard at work on something!

    In short, I still love Modeling in Lightwave but it would be foolish not to use or at least evaluate other tools. Lightwave can be used alongside other packages relatively seamlessly thanks to Origami Digital.
    you guys have pretty much summed up what I would have written.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    Standard Copy/paste between layers and dead simple scratch layers make working in modeler more like working in illustrator or photoshop than typical 3D apps which for some people, myself included, feels very fast and FEELING fast is important. Is it objectively faster than blender or other apps with the standard scene vs object mode paradigm? Probably not (although it probably isn’t really a whole heck of a lot slower either in many cases) and it is hard to make a good argument that it is worth the trade offs lightwave users are forced to make, but to poo poo others appreciation of the advantages of the modeler way of working, and simplicity IS an advantage, is silly.

    To put it another way: by all rights, based on features alone, modeler SHOULD have been relegated to the trash heap of history a decade ago and yet it keeps stubbornly trudging along doing things it’s own backwards way. Maybe it’s NOT due to lightwave users ignorance. MAYBE it is due to some qualities that it has that other software doesn’t have. Lightwave users don’t have to justify why they enjoy using modeler any more than an artist has to defend his choice of paintbrush.
    Maybe it is a feeling but in this day and age facts don't matter anyway, only feelings :P

    the polys as pixels paradigm is hard to beat and I find that you tend to get into a habit of doing things correctly and generally once as you know you have no fallback

    OD copy paste is invaluable to leverage other integrated apps such as modo though. Wouldn't be the same without it.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    OD copy paste is invaluable to leverage other integrated apps such as modo though. Wouldn't be the same without it.
    Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

    Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?

  15. #180
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    The biggest problem for me with modeler is the destructive nature of bevels and boolean operations. Yes some tools need tightening up, many can be combined and a few other things and i hope we see that in the next few years. Modeler does need a lot of love now but it is still capable. All this talk of 3rd party plugins is really pointless, some of the big guns still rely on third party. How many different fire, smoke, water and particle addons are there for Max or indeed Maya, does this imply that these apps are crap or dont have them built in. What about renderers, loads of them out there but it does not mean that the native one is rubbish.
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