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Thread: 2001 Slit Scan scene in Lightwave almost done yet ...

  1. #31
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    Yes, as jeric_synergy says, a repeated "dolly" move on frames 0-1 to rapidly approach the slit then reset simulates slit-scan as was physically implemented in 2001:ASO. If you check out my previous post:

    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...=1#post1550446

    it's a few fairly minor modifications of the original scene file posted by DonJMyers, but using Classic motion blur in LW2015. In that scene, the Camera is at 10m away from the slit in frame 0 and 0.2m away at frame 1, with a TCB 1.0 Tension spline and Post Behavior of Repeat. As indicated, you can approach the smooth, "open shutter" slit-scan effect using more Motion Blur Passes in the Camera properties screen at the cost of render time. At some point, the individual "instances" of the slit created by Classic motion blur "should" be basically continuous.

    For me, I'm still confused as to what effects wouldn't be much easier in LW using surfaces, volumetrics, lighting, etc. Slit-scan was intended to *simulate* what we can do easily in LW - i.e. an endless flat plan with high-resolution geometric light patterns on it over which the Camera flies. As I said in that post, the "tricky" part to me is finding the very-high resolution images that don't pixelate (or pixelate *much*) as they approach the camera.

    For example, this is just two planes with high-luminosity patterns applied (generated in the kaleidoscope scene I referenced and modifed with an image editor using edge detection, color balance, contrast, etc.), and with the Corona Image Filter applied:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    MOV file: 2001ASO_SlitScanEffects.mov

    Add a little Ligeti etheric music on top, beef up the image resolution even more, and it'd look pretty good, IMO. For example here's the same MOV file with a fragment of Ligeti "Atmospheres" (fair use): 2001ASO_SlitScan_Ligeti.mov

    For the V-ger scene, a lathed "vase" type structure with appropriate surfaces / lighting / hypervoxels applied may be MUCH easier to implement in LW that the slit-screen technique.

    Finally, as I said in that post, if you're interested in simulating the *process*, then using the prior scene with high-res geometry images and very high MB passes ought to do the trick (I think!).

    mTp
    Last edited by MonroePoteet; Yesterday at 09:50 AM. Reason: Add MOV file with Ligeti "Atmospheres" music; credit original scene

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonroePoteet View Post
    For me, I'm still confused as to what effects wouldn't be much easier in LW using surfaces, volumetrics, lighting, etc. Slit-scan was intended to *simulate* what we can do easily in LW - i.e. an endless flat plan with high-resolution geometric light patterns on it over which the Camera flies. As I said in that post, the "tricky" part to me is finding the very-high resolution images that don't pixelate (or pixelate *much*) as they approach the camera.

    mTp
    Wondering: how would simply suspending a physical (RW) camera very close over backlit transparencies on a conveyor belt have differed from the slit-scan effect??? DOF? (It appears they adjusted the focus continuously throughout the camera's travel.)
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  3. #33
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    Yes, Depth of Field would kill the close-up method. I do model railroading as a(nother) hobby, and photographing models closeup without the DOF fuzziness somewhere in the image is problematic. Pinhole cameras work OK, but produce the standard diffraction aberration around the edges unless the depth of the pinhole is basically zero, and even then the focus tends to get fuzzy around the edges, and you can ONLY get fish-eye type views.

    A method for making a "zero depth" pinhole is to take a thin metal sheet, make a slight dimple in it with a very sharp punch (not all the way through!), and then carefully and evenly sand down the dimple until the pinhole appears - the sanded down edges next to the hole will be very thin.

    One technique for in-focus model photography is to take numerous photographs from the same position with the same camera settings, but modify the focus for each successive "depth" and then composite them in post. I suppose that same technique could have been used instead of slit-scan, but unless you take a LOT of variable-focus images and composite them all I doubt the multi-image technique would produce the sensational clarity of slit-scan. For slit-scan the focus on the camera is modified as it slides toward the slit, a predictable, continuous focus change so the slit is continously in focus.

    mTp
    Last edited by MonroePoteet; Yesterday at 09:53 AM. Reason: Fix grammar / structure of last sentence

  4. #34
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    "Zero depth"!!!! (0)_(0)

    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
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  5. #35
    Studio Animator DonJMyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonroePoteet View Post
    For me, I'm still confused as to what effects wouldn't be much easier in LW using surfaces, volumetrics, lighting, etc. Slit-scan was intended to *simulate* what we can do easily in LW - i.e. an endless flat plan with high-resolution geometric light patterns on it over which the Camera flies.
    Yes, for me as I worked on it I realized LW can do the effect much better some other way but I really wanted to see what went through Trumbull's mind as he was creating these images by making an accurate slit scan machine. Unfortunately I assumed that LW 2018 was the way to go because I forgot it has fewer motion blur options. Ooops! I'll never uninstall LW 2015!

  6. #36
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    Forgot to post the scene file, so here's the scene file for the double-plane slit-scan simulation but with smaller resolution images. The high-resolution image on the bottom plane was over 14MB by itself (rendered 4096x4096 out of LW), which exceeds the forum upload limit.

    Note that the image on the bottom plane was taken directly from the LW render of a frame in the Kaleidoscope scene:

    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...=1#post1521973

    and modified to have extreme contrast in the Image Editor=>Editing panel. The image on the upper plane was modified / distored in an image editor (I use Corel PhotoPaint).

    At the 640x480 render resolution in the sample scene, the low-resolution images aren't too apparent. Rendering at higher resolutions (e.g. for film) would definitely have clearer / crisper geometrical patterns on the planes with the high- or ultra-high resolution images.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    mTp
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #37
    Registered User jbrookes's Avatar
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    That .mov file looks awesome!!

    As for the V-GER energy field, I'm pretty sure that was airbrush on glass. So the idea of mapping a vase shape is definitely the right idea.
    Last edited by jbrookes; Yesterday at 09:59 PM.
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  8. #38
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    How does the 2018 motion blur differ from the 2015 in words of one syllable or less? The methodology, that is. IOW, how do they get MB in 2018 and why does it not do the same thing it used to?
    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
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  9. #39
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    Well, I can't even say "Motion Blur" with single syllable words! How about: "It don't work for slit scan".

    In LW2015, there were three options for Motion Blur: Classic, Dithered and Photoreal. In LW2018, there's simply a checkbox which enables the LW2018 version of Photoreal motion blur.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	142296 LW2015 Motion Blur Type options

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	142297 LW2018 Just a checkbox to Enable / Disable MB

    For a moving object Classic MB in LW2015 worked by retrieving the Object's position in "subframes" after the current frame and producing semi-transparent copies of the object, with the MB Passes determining the number of copies. For a moving Camera, it uses the combination Camera and Object motions. Each copy was a clean, recognizable copy of the object, but semi-transparent based upon the speed.

    Here's a blue ball moving quickly left to right with Classic motion blur, 50% blur length and 6 passes:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dithered did a similar sampling, but doubled the number of samples and then produced the semi-transparency by dithering the object copies, i.e. only showing a sampling of pixels on the object, making the copies of the object a little less distinct. Here's the same scene and frame, just changing the MB type to Dithered:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Finally, Photoreal did the same time sampling, but made each copy of the object even less distinct through some sort of "noise" algorithm. Same scene and frame, just changing the MB type to Photoreal:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As mentioned, LW2018 simply has a checkbox which implements Photoreal motion blur, but the object copies are even less distinct than with Photoreal in LW2015. Same settings but with the default & only available MB type in LW2018:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, the issue is that to fake slit-scan you move the camera rapidly toward the slit and MUST enable motion blur to simulate leaving the shutter open during the move. In LW2018, this causes the "copies" of the object (i.e. details of the pattern showing through the slit) to lose most of their distinction, making the resulting pattern fuzzy and out-of-focus.

    In LW2015, you could change MB type to Classic and get semi-transparent but clear copies of the original object, so they retain "focus" even close to the camera, giving something akin to the clarity of the slit-scan process. By bumping up the Luminosity of the pattern to overcome the semi-transparency of the copies (I used 100,000% in my sample scene) and having the MB passes VERY large, you could come close to simulating the open-shutter effect of slit-scan.

    mTp
    Last edited by MonroePoteet; Today at 08:23 AM. Reason: Typo; why bump up Luminosity

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonJMyers View Post
    Yes, for me as I worked on it I realized LW can do the effect much better some other way but I really wanted to see what went through Trumbull's mind as he was creating these images by making an accurate slit scan machine. Unfortunately I assumed that LW 2018 was the way to go because I forgot it has fewer motion blur options. Ooops! I'll never uninstall LW 2015!
    Yes, I'll be keeping LW2015 indefinitely for NON-photorealistic endeavors, and indeed may use it primarily for my feeble, hobbyist animation efforts. The "fakery" available in pre-LW2018 was very valuable, IMO, and I'm not that interested in "faking reality" or "physics based rendering" or "photorealism".

    mTp

  11. #41
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    Thank you Monroe, for that summation.

    I sorta knew how old MB (emm bee, single syllables! ) worked: so it seems 2018 MB does pretty much the same procedure, but with more blurring?

    BTW, I upped your example file to 1000 passes, 1000% Blur Length..... it was interesting....

    ++++++++
    2000 passes / 100% BL /Shtr eff=100%:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    +++++++++
    The "slit" geometry in my version was a bit janky, so I recreated it w/a slightly wider (?) slot, and it gives a smoother effect.

    The proper thing for me to do is to step-morph the slit to see what varying widths do. --But first, recreate the effect w/CGI techniques to see if there's any difference (prolly not). Maybe some of the bloom effect might be a bit different. RW film of course is additive, as it appears is the 2015 MB.

    Fun, yet academic, times!
    Last edited by jeric_synergy; Today at 11:21 AM.
    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
    Praise to Buddha! #resist
    Chard's Credo-"Documentation is PART of the Interface"
    Film the cops. Always FILM THE COPS. Use this app.

  12. #42
    Studio Animator DonJMyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monroepoteet View Post
    forgot to post the scene file, so here's the scene file for the double-plane slit-scan simulation but with smaller resolution images.

    Mtp
    thanks so much i will play with it today !

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