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Thread: Windows 10 Annoyances

  1. #16
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Richard! How nice to see one of your well-researched posts again. Hope you are well.
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  2. #17
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    Good insight there Richard. Out of interest, do you know whether that information holds true for Win10 LTSB? The TC1 ships with LTSB on it (which, as far as I am aware is the 'right' version of Windows for this job), but one of the things about LTSB AFAIK is that it doesn't get feature updates (eg; creators update), and instead requires a fresh install for any of that. I am starting to wonder whether I should run ShutUp10 (https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10) which we run on some of our other (unavoidably) Win10 stock to get a bit more control over what it's going to do. It's got some pretty comprehensive features for making updates less intrusive (or disabling them). Anyone in NewTek-town think of any good reason why running ShutUp10 would be a bad idea?

  3. #18
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    Curious, Webslave - is it not possible for your TC1 to have a window of time every week or two where it could be taken down for an hour to do the updates? Is your facility truly a 24-hour shop where the box is in use 100% of the time? If so, I assume you have a backup TC1? Assuming you have a backup, could you not place one 'in service' while the other is maintained, and then swap? If you don't have a backup unit, and can't afford to take down your only TC1 because you're in production 24/7.... well, I don't have much to say about that.

    I ran a broadcast facility with two Grass Valley Kayennes and a few other switchers and they also required regular communications with the mothership to dload patches and whatnot, so this most definitely is not something that is specific to NewTek and is instead a new part of the connected world. (Even the Sony and Hitachi cameras and decks require regular downloads and patches, now that I think about it....) The GVG stuff did not "force" anything, so you could go for an unlimited amount of time before you did an update - but if you elected to go that route, you ran the risk of being bitten by some show-killing bugs. Updating was something we were religious about even if it required locking out one of the control rooms from rotation. Believe me - the LAST thing you want is Nancy Grace sitting there on set while your swxr reboots mid-shoot because it ran into a buffer overflow that was patched in a software release that wasn't installed.

    I get your frustration about Win10. It sucks in this regard. But keep in mind what you are dealing with and what it cost you. The Kayennes I mentioned above were $450k - each. I think that what you've got into the TC1 should afford some measure of flexibility on the part of the owner/op, and also come with the expectations that there are things you'll have to deal with that you wont on gear that costs 10x more

  4. #19
    NewTek Engineering ACross's Avatar
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    I believe that currently any TC1 (or VMC1, 3P1, etc...) install should make Windows updates so that they do not auto-download or auto-install. When you go into the updates panel it should say "Check for updates". If for some-reason MSFT choose to overwrite that then they should still not be able to install while in your show (because we have disabled their dialog box that pops up). I am now on iteration 3 of different ways to disable updates; if you want the absolute most "nuclear" way then you can just disable the update service entirely, but that means that Skype does not work (they require access to the update server).

    The big caveat on all of this is that they very much frown on disabling Windows updates and so it is not uncommon that when you do install a patch that they reset all of these settings and re-enable downloads. There is very little we can do about them undoing all the changes we make to disable this unfortunately. Regardless, this is something we change in each build to overcome whatever the current restrictions placed on stopping updates are ... as best I know the current versions will disable Windows updates unless the user chooses to manually install them (which is the way it should be IMHO).

    Andrew

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Curious, Webslave - is it not possible for your TC1 to have a window of time every week
    Thinking about each unit - one tours, so it's really only either up or in transit - and when it's up it's up at odd times (different TZ schedules, etc) which makes scheduling updates via GP impractical. As a rule we avoid running any updates on the road like the plague and instead run our updates as part of the maintenance cycle every quarter or so when we are dark for a short while - it avoids unexpected software changes on the road.

    In another facility it's attached to a studio. The studio is not used continually on a 24 hour basis, but needs to be available on a 24 hour basis. Therefore, taking the box down with notice for maintenance is okay, having the box pop a modal dialog without warning while in-use is not.

    Another lives out at a racing facility and is used a few times a week, but the operators of it are generally unskilled in anything other than basic switching so they expect that it will be running and ready by the time they get there. There's no tech on-site to look after it daily (it gets planned visits for maintenance and spot visits for support).

    Anyone who hires Tricasters would also have trouble since the unit is not always in your possession for you to be able to manage the update cycle. We are also in that boat with some units.

    Agree that other manufacturers issue updates too - no dispute. But as you rightly point out it's to your discretion as to how and when those updates take place - it's never something that takes over your equipment mid-show, and that's the sticking point here. Agreed that without taking new updates you're taking a chance that a bug has been fixed that you'll now run into, but you also have to weigh that against the quality of the incoming update (and let's face it; we're actually talking about OS updates here which are usually security fixes for exploits you're generally not going to run into on closed production networks on a device that is not really used for browsing the web).

    FWIW, Blackmagic also have a crappy approach to updates; they will check the web on launch of their software and if an update is available it will refuse to proceed with launch of the software until you update the switcher, at which point the control surface will lock out until you update that too. Not sure what they were thinking there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ACross View Post
    I believe that currently any TC1 (or VMC1, 3P1, etc...) install should make Windows updates so that they do not auto-download or auto-install. When you go into the updates panel it should say "Check for updates". If for some-reason MSFT choose to overwrite that then they should still not be able to install while in your show (because we have disabled their dialog box that pops up). I am now on iteration 3 of different ways to disable updates; if you want the absolute most "nuclear" way then you can just disable the update service entirely, but that means that Skype does not work (they require access to the update server).
    Good call, Andrew. Our experience in the non-LTSB versions of Windows is that disabling the Windows Update service is not enough to kill off updates; the service has a watchdog somewhere that manages to re-enable it. We had more luck with disabling updates with ShutUp10 if that's any help.

    I'm glad that you too are of the mind that disabling Windows Update is still the preferred option in favour of giving the operator discretion to apply them as appropriate (and as has always been the case in your products). I guess the crux of what I've been getting at is circumstances have changed that from the way it's always been, but as an operator there hasn't really been anything to make me aware of that change and what my options are (hence a suggestion to do an email drop).

    Also, just on an earlier note - we installed Chrome on one of our TC1's (I know, I know - but Firefox just isn't our thing... ) and knock us down with a feather if Chrome didn't appear in the live desktop after we set it as the default browser. That's really cool, so good work guys! Definitely worth putting in the release notes because I'd imagine a lot of people will love it. Maybe one small thing - if this is now a supported configuration perhaps it might be worth adding Chrome and the Google Updater (*shudder*) into the whitelist for allowed installed programs to suppress the popup when starting the Tricaster software? We kind-of figured the auto-launch of the most recent session is in-part targeted at people who might use additional Tricasters on occasion as (somewhat) headless NDI converter boxes (ala digital snake), but the popup about installed applications gets in the way of the functionality.

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