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Thread: OpenGL Deprecated in OS X 10.14.x

  1. #1
    Super Member avkills's Avatar
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    OpenGL Deprecated in OS X 10.14.x

    What is this going to look like on the Mac side of LW 2018? Newtek are you going to provide a 3rd party OpenGL Library or move everything over to Metal?

    Home: Hackintosh i7 | 16GB Ram | 1080Ti | OS X 10.13.5/Windows 10

  2. #2
    Super Member CaptainMarlowe's Avatar
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    Metal or Vulkan. Although not officially supported by Apple, Vulkan seems to get good results.

    https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...ial-Mac-Vulkan

  3. #3
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    "Deprecated" isn't the same as "absent". OpenGL & OpenCL will both still be present in 10.14. This is just Apple shooting a warning across devs' bows telling them it won't be around much past 10.14. Also, it isn't just macOS, OpenGL's days are numbered (or past) on many platforms.

    Vulkan is the "equivalent" Khronos platform-generic solution, often implemented atop platform-specific APIs such as Metal (as with MoltenVK for macOS). It basically replaces both OpenGL and OpenCL.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 1080ti

  4. #4
    Registered User darkChief's Avatar
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    Another excuse not to develop for Mac I guess. Especially for a developer with limited resources. The move is quite shocking, since OpenCL was their idea. Anyway it will live on in vulkan apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Vulkan is the "equivalent" Khronos platform-generic solution, often implemented atop platform-specific APIs such as Metal (as with MoltenVK for macOS). It basically replaces both OpenGL and OpenCL.
    I heard you worked on OpenGL during the Silicon Graphics days.

  5. #5
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkChief View Post
    I heard you worked on OpenGL during the Silicon Graphics days.
    Yep, back when dinosaurs roamed the planet. Still, given how modern hw connections work, GPU improvements, etc. the fundamental model of how OpenGL works is no longer that efficient. Vulkan is essentially the equivalent of OpenGL but designed to take advantage of modern hw connections, GPU capabilities, etc. A lot of OpenGL's "special sauce" lives on in Vulkan, it's just being updated and rearchitected/refactored into more efficient interaction models.

    Realistically, moving from OpenGL to Vulkan isn't that huge an undertaking in many-to-most cases. There's a lot of overhead in setting up shader associations, etc. in OGL that is handled in a much simpler, more direct (and efficient) manner in Vulkan. The programming model actually gets simpler in most cases, esp. for shader-heavy apps.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 1080ti

  6. #6
    Registered User darkChief's Avatar
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    That's cool, thanks for the details. I've never delved to deep into OpenGL, I rarely go past intermediate mode unless I need a shaders for something specific. So Vulkan will be interesting to learn at some point.

    The evolution of graphics has always fascinated me. I stumbled on a copy of 'Michael Abrash's Black Book" in highschool. Didn't understand a thing of course, but each chapter had an entertaining intro about the graphics industry at that time. Anyway it's pretty cool what you guys worked on back then.

  7. #7
    Super Member avkills's Avatar
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    Sounds good. I was more or less hoping to hear from someone from Newtek, but if you are saying going to Vulkan isn't that hard, then I am not worried.

    Home: Hackintosh i7 | 16GB Ram | 1080Ti | OS X 10.13.5/Windows 10

  8. #8
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Well, a LOT of the difficulty level involved in migrating to Vulkan depends on how well the app's OpenGL integration was kept up-to-date, and (perhaps more importantly) how closely the app's OpenGL code adhered to "OpenGL best practices". Modern, shader-focused code that adhered to the OGL "rules" is actually not that difficult to migrate, and in many cases will actually become less complex in many ways.

    That said, I'm also certain there's OGL code out there that hasn't been well-maintained, and took liberties with rules around synchronization, thread-handling, etc. and will find the migration to Vulkan quite painful. On the plus side, though, after the migration (done well) such code will wind up in much better shape: Likely significantly more stable/reliable, and also likely less complex (at least w.r.t. graphics handling).

    I haven't seen the LW OpenGL code, so I can't really give more than a SWAG on how easy or difficult migration would be for LW. They did some fairly significant work on shader handling during development of both LW2015 and LW2018, so hopefully they're in good shape for Vulkan migration. The prior OpenGL code had some stability issues, esp. when using GLSL, so I suspect it had issues in areas that might make migration difficult. I find the new OpenGL handling much more stable in LW2015 and LW2018, particularly w.r.t. GLSL, which I take as an encouraging sign towards a smoother migration (if they do so).
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 1080ti

  9. #9
    Ha!, GLSL has never ever drawn transparency correctly in modeller on the Mac in any iteration of the program, how it does on windows I have no idea, but on the Mac it is completely back to front in layering the surfaces

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