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  1. #46
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    as a hostile environment*, so the chance that your post came to their attention is pretty small.
    Most likely the case sadly, If I only had the time, have been thinking of making a website with Lightwave improvements from my list, and that means covering the topics I have done previously on threads, but more slick on a webpage with comparisons etc, though it may actually contain reference to other software on areas I think they should look at...just for reference on how to do things great, not a page I may post here and propagate for.

  2. #47
    Prometheus, give it time, it's a brand new system with far superior volumetric shading and lighting, it just is missing a lot of the particle simulation/fluid systems to do more than blobs, but it's version 1. If you load and render openvdb files generated from software which can do such things (such as Houdini) you can see the power is there to be exploited soon. (or now if you want to use LW instead of mantra) I've also seen users using the volumetric light scatter in preference to the Octane lights, for speed and simplicity to set up (on facebook).

  3. #48
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ... though it may actually contain reference to other software on areas I think they should look at...just for reference on how to do things great, not a page I may post here and propagate for.
    There is a qualitative difference between a real suggestion along the lines of "I would love it if LW's feature X had something like this screenshot from application Z, because it makes it a lot easier to manage/visualize, what-have-you" and one which has an evident agenda and runs along the lines of "LW's feature X sucks, total crap compared to application Z; clearly the LW team is not paying attention to their users or the competition. Abandon all hope ye who enter here!". We've had quite enough of the latter, but really have no problem with the former.
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  4. #49
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobian View Post
    Prometheus, give it time, it's a brand new system with far superior volumetric shading and lighting, it just is missing a lot of the particle simulation/fluid systems to do more than blobs, but it's version 1. If you load and render openvdb files generated from software which can do such things (such as Houdini) you can see the power is there to be exploited soon. (or now if you want to use LW instead of mantra) I've also seen users using the volumetric light scatter in preference to the Octane lights, for speed and simplicity to set up (on facebook).
    Yes I know..though we have been giving it time and I am not getting younger...but yes, I do suspect the new volumetrics will improve over time, That is the mportance of Us actually raising criticics where needed, not silently go meh etc.
    And yes..you should do your best and refrain from suck etc, but at some point you need to put a value in to how it is working...such as not good, bad, poor, horrible..before reaching suck or it stinks.
    And of course..if you say it is bad, do your outmost to describe why...and maybe in reference to something that worked is working better.

    And me not upgrading and bringing forth critics on some areas, just mean that itīs not at the level I want right now...I may or may not upgrade later on, a lot of factors depending on what I choose, including what kind of work I am occupying at the time etc.

    My guessing is that I will not see myself upgrading this year, maybe not early next year either...maybe after that ..and after substancial changes or new features are introduced.





    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    There is a qualitative difference between a real suggestion along the lines of "I would love it if LW's feature X had something like this screenshot from application Z, because it makes it a lot easier to manage/visualize, what-have-you" and one which has an evident agenda and runs along the lines of "LW's feature X sucks, total crap compared to application Z; clearly the LW team is not paying attention to their users or the competition. Abandon all hope ye who enter here!". We've had quite enough of the latter, but really have no problem with the former.

    I believe the Lightwave team needs to be able to take critics..provided it is done so with respect.(granted that many threads has been out of line)..and I assume they also posses a certain degree of distance when someone may critic the software or the development, even hockey stars can not be on their top and will from time to time do a lesser good efort, or simply do mistakes, you simply do not cheer them on if they do not enter the ice and do their best or have no interest of winning.

    As for the time of recent...It seems Newtek and moderation officers... have decided to be harder and not tolerate certain things, and fully understandable so...I just hope they have the sense of accepting some degree of critics, otherwise they simple wouldnīt be able to improve on things on the product or how they develop it with a certain respect to how users perceive their software to work.

    I am no perfect horses..a, I need to be corrected from time to time, maybe I am wrong about certain things on the cloud issues..I am only human and make mistakes, so are peopler behind the lw team.

    Great Steve that you make it clear, so it is ok for me to mention that software smoothie mixer from time to time then as long as I say"I would love if Lightwave would have that kind of skin modifier..and preferably under a proper thread section.

    Unfortunately I think due to the many agenda post of negative form, critics from people who only wants Lightwave to evolve to a more Amazing software..may have been seen as a part of that group that brings on such posts, where in fact there is quite a difference.

  5. #50
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ...I just hope they have the sense of accepting some degree of critics, otherwise they simple wouldnīt be able to improve on things on the product or how they develop it with a certain respect to how users perceive their software to work.
    Agreed. And there should even be room for expression of a level of frustration at times. I believe we've been tolerant of such in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Great Steve that you make it clear, so it is ok for me to mention that software smoothie mixer from time to time then as long as I say"I would love if Lightwave would have that kind of skin modifier..and preferably under a proper thread section.
    Of course. Pandering has never been expected ... just civility, and some reasonable limit to nagging and demeaning one another, whether directly or by obvious inference.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Unfortunately I think due to the many agenda post of negative form, critics from people who only wants Lightwave to evolve to a more Amazing software..may have been seen as a part of that group that brings on such posts, where in fact there is quite a difference.
    The difference in tone between passion or even temporary frustration and remarks intended to give offense is usually not that hard to discern, especially when it is part of a constant pattern.
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  6. #51
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    Thanks to all!

    Thanks to all for answering! Helluva lot there to digest so i'll keep my fat ignorant mouth shut, except to say marander's remarks hit home.
    This may sound off-topic but it sure affects my purchasing decision of LW etc: what drives me nuts is online only/non-downloadable manuals. I'm not an internet lover, and at $80 a month it's a lot of money for a technical requirement. (LW isn't $1000, it's $2000!, and $1000 year thereafter.). Sob.
    PS: and thanks for volumetric primitives remarks... sound like a mixed bag- a lot like LW 2018.

  7. #52
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    Which situation, imho, could be improved if a small handful of people could self-moderate, by offering criticism without feeling the need to add insult to their posts.
    Please point out where Marander's post contained such an insult?
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  8. #53
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Please point out where Marander's post contained such an insult?
    I did. It requires no imagination to read "Again, poor UI design by NewTek" as a dig. If this were an isolated incident, it would pass without notice, but the inclusion of "again" is an open admission that it does, in fact, form part of a pattern.

    Not only was this 'addendum' in no way helpful, but quite the contrary: this sort of thing is without question one of the main reasons most of the developers refrain from even reading the forums, much less participate openly here. In addition, many members have PM'ed me over time to the effect that they are sick and tired of being assailed with a consistently negative drumbeat. To the extent possible, I resist such calls for preemptive moderation activity, but I certainly understand where they are coming from.
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  9. #54
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    I disagree: to me, there seems to be a pattern of consistent poor UI design that should be addressed. It's like whatever process the devs are using when in comes to implementing UI does NOT include thing like "consistency" and "low hanging fruit" and "multiple entity functionality", and I've been seeing this for like, what, twenty years?

    Examples:
    Consistency: "a" versus "fit" in the Node Editor.
    Low Hanging Fruit: the entirety of the Layers Panel.
    Multiple Entity Functionality: anyplace where it's impossible to affect entities en masse.

    It's a systemic fault with the LW development process. Implementing big features doesn't seem to be a problem, but where the point where the code meets the user certainly does.

    ++++
    to whit: (from 2015)
    http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....=1#post1419714
    Last edited by jeric_synergy; 06-01-2018 at 04:57 PM.
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  10. #55
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    ... and the beat goes on.
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  11. #56
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Alright, I've done a quick review of his most recent posting history, and belatedly realize I may have been a bit hard on Marander, for which I apologize. I'm just really, really tired of the tendency of a small chorus to pile on with passive aggressive sneering at every opportunity. I could go on about how discouraging it is for the devs, but I don't want to dilute the apology by doing so.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinice View Post
    LW isn't $1000, it's $2000!, and $1000 year thereafter.
    Huh? LW 2018 full version is $995 and it's a perpetual license.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #58
    Super Member Qexit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPSchmidt View Post
    Huh? LW 2018 full version is $995 and it's a perpetual license.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think he is taking into account how much it costs him per month for internet access, $80 if I read him correctly, which adds $960 to the cost if that is the only reason he needs/uses the internet.. As the documentation is only available online, no hard copy or downloadable manuals, you can only get to it if you have internet access...so it becomes a necessary additional cost for him.
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  14. #59
    Man of many cells. shrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qexit View Post
    I think he is taking into account how much it costs him per month for internet access, $80 if I read him correctly, which adds $960 to the cost if that is the only reason he needs/uses the internet.. As the documentation is only available online, no hard copy or downloadable manuals, you can only get to it if you have internet access...so it becomes a necessary additional cost for him.
    One can save webpages as PDF files.
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  15. #60
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qexit View Post
    I think he is taking into account how much it costs him per month for internet access, $80 if I read him correctly, which adds $960 to the cost if that is the only reason he needs/uses the internet.. As the documentation is only available online, no hard copy or downloadable manuals, you can only get to it if you have internet access...so it becomes a necessary additional cost for him.
    Good point: it's like a "stealth subscription".
    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
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