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Thread: clouds?

  1. #151
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    yeah, it does look to be a LW2018 challenge to get that "cumulus" look right.

    the clouds just don't illuminate that well. they kinda look like out of paper in away.
    it might (unfortunately) very well be a LW2018 limit...


    must see! 
    I think it may have to do with multiple scattering, where these images are done without radiosity..while I have tried with GI, I do not experience any improvements withing cloud scattering really..but I may not be that familiar with it all yet.

    and you may be able to use the scattering data, but itīs really difficult to tweak right I think, one small value wrong in gradients, or color or scale intensity, and it goes from almost realistic to cartoony.
    Could also be that the distant light isnīt suitable for it, or simply adjust the size angle abit to spread the light a bit more before hitting the clouds.

  2. #152
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Here are some more RW alto-/cirrostratus cloud images...

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    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.5),32GB RAM, NV 1080ti

  3. #153
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Here are some more RW alto-/cirrostratus cloud images...

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    Thanks...always appreciated with reference photos, I got some nice feather cirrus as well, but I have been disorganized, when transfering photos, Have to locate it first and structure it up.

    After giving up on the new volumetric clouds at larger scale ..and trying to get the global scattering to work decently..I just had to
    to go back to Lightwave 2015 try ogo taiki some more, may be able to record in the end of the week, if I am satisfied with both quality and speed, I can in fact get faster godrays going on than in terragen, since the vpr at a certain size which is bigger than terragen or vue preview, will render draft much faster.
    Need to work on quality a bit more, but the previews and general atmospheric with nice light shafts is really sweet..not something that the new volumetrics can come close to.

  4. #154
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    Here's a cloud with god rays I took with my mobile this afternoon around the house here in Switzerland - might be a challenge to render ;-)

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  5. #155
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Here's a cloud with god rays I took with my mobile this afternoon around the house here in Switzerland - might be a challenge to render ;-)

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    Those are great Marander, Thanks..
    And yes, itīs a challenge for any software to match that, no problems really with godrays, you can do that in vue, terragen...use the new volumetrics may work to some degree since this is snapshots on a small part of a cloud, and I have posted an image to show that you can do at least a hero cloud then using a spherical light to backlit it and put it close to the cloud and then enable global scattering.

    The problem for any software is the actual cloud, especially getting the realistic density and scattering in there.
    As I mentioned, you may be able to get somewhat close with the new volumetrics, but I think that only pertains these kind of focused hero cloud shots...and only working on smaller scales, when you make your clouds really large..close to real world scale, the global scattering seem to be very hard to produce something at all..despite how much you crank the values up..at least very hard to do.

    If I can get ogo taiki cloud density to reach in my mind good quality enough, then itīs a no brainer with the rest of the atmosphere and godrays really, itīs just about the cloud illumination and quality it all depends on for that..and what ever final rendertime it could impose of course.

  6. #156
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Is it just me, or does LW2018's global scattering (medium) require significantly "denser" values to yield visible godrays than you'd expect (for real scale)? IRL, at real scales, even minuscule densities of airborne particles create very visible crepuscular lighting effects.
    John W.
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  7. #157
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Is it just me, or does LW2018's global scattering (medium) require significantly "denser" values to yield visible godrays than you'd expect (for real scale)? IRL, at real scales, even minuscule densities of airborne particles create very visible crepuscular lighting effects.
    not just you, It seems to be reported from others as well, and I just canīt get it going either with real scales of clouds.
    Besides that, you can not use the most common sunlight, the distant light...it doesnīt work with the new volumetrics as I am aware of, we need a proper light for the sun that works with global scattering.

    Then I really have my doubts about the global volumetric scattering being created or adapted as to be working in a full real world scale, that is why I turned to Ogo Taiki again.
    Unless there is a way in nodes to extend the spherical lightīs volumetric falloff to work at larger more real world scales?

    No problems with smaller meter hero clouds, and if you put the light very close to the cloud..behind it, that is however not very physical correct.
    linking to this image again with the new volumetrics and spherical light for the godray effect.


  8. #158
    Because we mainly do VFX we rarely have to render clouds.
    Although we do sky replacement, but therefor mainly photos are used.
    Where we need 3D clouds are shots with a flight through the clouds or Heroclouds with special shapes.

    Just a fun test for vdb import in LW 2018:

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    A few things about clouds I noticed in LW 2018:
    OpenVDB:
    I would like an easy way to remap the channels.
    We need a way to time the VDB sequences as needed (envelopes), especially for explosions.
    Asymmetry input seems to be broken (nodal does not work nor envelopes and texture)
    A better documentation about the useage of the openVDB node (I dont understand it...).
    OpenGL preview with adjustable quallity settings for faster preview.

    A test with a vdb from terragen, with distant light at real world scale and dp sunsky:

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    Volumetric:
    We need special procedural textures for clouds. Some cloud types with simple, "real world" parameters and animated motion/evolution.
    We want to use geometry to shape clouds.
    Real OpenGL preview with adjustable quallity settings for faster preview.

    ciao
    Thomas
    Web: www.dieleinwandhelden.com

    I use two pieces of the three-piece application with mocap module.

  9. #159
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Leitner View Post
    Because we mainly do VFX we rarely have to render clouds.
    Although we do sky replacement, but therefor mainly photos are used.
    Where we need 3D clouds are shots with a flight through the clouds or Heroclouds with special shapes.

    Just a fun test for vdb import in LW 2018:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    A few things about clouds I noticed in LW 2018:
    OpenVDB:
    I would like an easy way to remap the channels.
    We need a way to time the VDB sequences as needed (envelopes), especially for explosions.
    Asymmetry input seems to be broken (nodal does not work nor envelopes and texture)
    A better documentation about the useage of the openVDB node (I dont understand it...).
    OpenGL preview with adjustable quallity settings for faster preview.

    A test with a vdb from terragen, with distant light at real world scale and dp sunsky:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Wolke_terragen_openvdb_v009.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	1.22 MB 
ID:	142184

    Volumetric:
    We need special procedural textures for clouds. Some cloud types with simple, "real world" parameters and animated motion/evolution.
    We want to use geometry to shape clouds.
    Real OpenGL preview with adjustable quallity settings for faster preview.

    ciao
    Thomas
    Youre a pro Thomas, so of course, that workflow of using backdrop images is effective and to use volumetric clouds for fly throughs or special Hero clouds as you say.... is the way to go.

    My first priority "Fixes of the new volumetrics" are...

    1. Random scale parameter slider directly in the interface, I do not like to have to use the particle emitter -+ settings for size and switch tabs all the time, neither do I like to set it up through nodes...Hypervoxels 3.0 Was..Is superior in that regard.

    2. Make it work directly on points, we should have to do unecessarey work with adding pfx and set that up.

    3. Bring back the direct acess to some main textures and make it connected when entering nodes for editing and changing.

    4. Master slave settings...as I think you also wanted? a way to set One volume null as master and the others as slaves, so changing emission and scattering etc..will affect the others the same, dynamite plugin had that option.

    5. I had hoped for a similar UI where I just could check either hypervoxels 3.0 or New volumetrics 4.0, cause I really find it annoying not being able to uncheck various items, make them active or not and acessing them from there, I find it more
    easier to go wrong when you switch between several null volume items, apart from that ..It is Required that you select a volume item to change itīs properties, meaning you can not move other items around at the same time as we could with hypervoxels 3.0

    6. Bring back some texture animated effects such as velocity translate.

    7. As you say...we want modelled or sculpted geometry to work with volumetrics, not just cone, spherical or cubes, both Modo and Blender can use any modelled shape, that said...Lightwaves volumetrics with textures and softness I think may be better than both of the others though, Itīs just that it is harder to do special shape designed clouds.

    8. Yes..new procedurals perhaps, my favourites is Turbulent noise, Rman gardner clouds, Rman Weather, and dented, unfortunately Dpontīs rman textures is broken as nodes and only available as textures and appliance through the color layer nodes, Itīs not the same and you would loose some nodal connection transforms and inputs.

    (oh...I have a hellish nightmare when changing textures in the layering system..itīs been like that from 11.6 and up to 2018, where changing a texture with vpr active just crashes Lightwave very very much, depends on certain textures, may be something with dpontīs textures..and some others, also depending on if I have used a texture as displacement layer )



    I forgot...

    9. Full global infinite cloud layer system.
    10. Full Global spectral volumetric layer.

    I agree on open GL enhancements.

    What...is there openVDB export now in terragen? and is that also in the free demo version?

    Positives.. new volumetrics is much more realistic ..at least for clouds, they have made improvements in the sense that the falloff settings actually works now..which it never did with hypervoxels 3., the softness of the edges are much much better than hypervoxels 3.0, we could use local density gradients in various channels to soften ol Hvīs out, but it also affected the general volume quite a bit.


    And for erikals....Feel free to use and photoshoping, I do my fixings in Krita nowadays, I forgot to crop away for you only the cloud image, but you can fix that yourself.
    see the images, One image smooth repaired with a single filter, the other one is direct raw render..but print screened, added some Light info node to the emission input slot, put on some GI and increased rays, increased volumetric intensity for the two lights, and used environment light and distant light, the distant light I cranked up the angle size a bit.

    For avoiding too much detail in original render, It seems you either have to lower the texture density and raise scattering scale, or do the reverse..these two are intertwined that needs a good balance.
    At the upper part of the cloud, there is small breakaways and puffs, in real world those are rarely there, at least they should be very very thin and dissolved almost, I could have tweaked the actual cloud parameters more ..but time you know, that kind of unrealistic puffs is something that Terragen handles so well, and where Vue is simply horrible to handle that.











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  10. #160

    what really makes the effect in PhotoShop is making a 2nd layer with "screen" (+ a mask)
    the other stuff has a more subtle effect.

    i think it is also important to remember that Disney studio also 100% likely, tweak it in post.


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  11. #161
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    what really makes the effect in PhotoShop is making a 2nd layer with "screen" (+ a mask)
    the other stuff has a more subtle effect.

    i think it is also important to remember that Disney studio also 100% likely, tweak it in post.


    Perhaps, but I am not that convinced as you are about post tweaks, perhaps some smaller color and contrast, but getting those kind of scattering results and absorbtion, I do think that is the result of how it deals with
    multiple scattering within a volume, specially designed to produce that result, and I do not suspect that is the result of any post processing really.

    Terragen can yield similar shading on the clouds.

    I did a little guide on some settings of the multiple scattering in Terragen, the cloud is an asset from Pablo Del Molino for Terragen anyone can use for free, download it here...
    https://gumroad.com/l/dZvdb

    I did some minor cloud coverage and altitude changes, and changed the sun heading and elevation.
    The rest was just a process of testing multiple scattering from 0-6, and also one color curve adjusted image, and finally the last image I decreased the Param C, which gives a more silverlining to the cloud.
    Watch in higher resolution.



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  12. #162

    Perhaps, but I am not that convinced as you are about post tweaks, perhaps some smaller color and contrast, but getting those kind of scattering results and absorbtion, I do think that is the result of how it deals with
    multiple scattering within a volume, specially designed to produce that result, and I do not suspect that is the result of any post processing really.
    oh yes, Absolutely
    don't get me wrong here, just saying they use it to tweak further

    Terragen can yield similar shading on the clouds.
    very true, NewTek/LightWave should aim at / look towards the Terragen shader.
    Last edited by erikals; 07-11-2018 at 05:45 PM.
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  13. #163
    A.K.A "The Silver Fox" Gungho3D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ...
    Terragen can yield similar shading on the clouds.

    I did a little guide on some settings of the multiple scattering in Terragen, the cloud is an asset from Pablo Del Molino for Terragen anyone can use for free, download it here...
    https://gumroad.com/l/dZvdb


    Nice work. Thanks for sharing the cloud freebie model link, and the images work-up, in addition to being informative, looks great.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ....2. Make it work directly on points, we should have to do unecessarey work with adding pfx and set that up...
    Yes of course , esspecially as we had this since years in the old HyperVoxels.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ....What...is there openVDB export now in terragen? and is that also in the free demo version?...
    The OpenVDB is from this site:

    https://planetside.co.uk/forums/inde...vkvv6sa5qtsvi6

    It is for testing the VDB workflow in terragen.
    Here an other one with this vdb:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ciao
    Thomas
    Web: www.dieleinwandhelden.com

    I use two pieces of the three-piece application with mocap module.

  15. #165
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Leitner View Post
    Yes of course , esspecially as we had this since years in the old HyperVoxels.



    The OpenVDB is from this site:

    https://planetside.co.uk/forums/inde...vkvv6sa5qtsvi6

    It is for testing the VDB workflow in terragen.
    Here an other one with this vdb:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ciao
    Thomas

    A question Thomas, I see you used distant light here, I thought it was broken...I have never gotten distant light to work in 2018 with global scattering, have you added some nodal correction for that light or may it have been fixed in
    the more recent 2018 versions?

    I am still using 2018.01 here.

    I see you have too much glow intensity in general sun flare, a tip would be to add another distant light at the same angle and location, make it a large angle size, that way you will illuminate the bottom side of the clouds so they arenīt so dark...thatīs what Ivé been doing to avoid to dark clouds when backlit and doing godrays, you may also be able to use environment light perhaps.

    And while it is cool with VDB output from terragen, it sort of looses a lot of what makes terragen render looking nice, the only thing you are left with is some cloud layer, and you can actually do cloud layers with
    decent fractals in lightwave as well, but the shading you loose, as well as the sky.

    I hope for VDB the other way around, to import fluid simulations to Terragen, and we may see even more fabulous cloud renderings with a new way to create the clouds (hero clouds especially) together with the rest of the goodies in
    Terragen.

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