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Thread: Metallics Grainy in 2018, but not in 11

  1. #1
    Charlesian2000
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    Metallics Grainy in 2018, but not in 11

    Hi Guys,

    Absolutely puzzled here.

    A photorealistic render in 2018, is extremely grainy, but in 11 it's perfectly fine.

    If I use the Lightwave ball in 2018, it's fine, but my objects look terrible.

    LW11 Used the default Gold for 11
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	141662

    2018 Used the default Gold for 2018
    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	141661



    What gives? Using the same camera settings. Adjusting the lights makes no difference.

    Not sure what's going on



    Charles

  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlesian2000 View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Absolutely puzzled here.

    A photorealistic render in 2018, is extremely grainy, but in 11 it's perfectly fine.

    If I use the Lightwave ball in 2018, it's fine, but my objects look terrible.

    LW11 Used the default Gold for 11
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	NotGrainy.jpg 
Views:	200 
Size:	328.2 KB 
ID:	141662

    2018 Used the default Gold for 2018
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	grainy.jpg 
Views:	191 
Size:	338.6 KB 
ID:	141661



    What gives? Using the same camera settings. Adjusting the lights makes no difference.

    Not sure what's going on



    Charles
    when you say adjust the lights, what did you do then? adjusting light samples often cleans up noice, depending on what kind of light you have..you need to raise samples quite a bit, otherwise you check the render panel and raise reflection samples etc, finally you try to raise camera aa sampling.

  3. #3
    LightWave documentation BeeVee's Avatar
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    Go through this: https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display...Noise+workflow

    Things have changed in LightWave 2018...

    B
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  4. #4
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    The default Gold surface in LW2018 has Roughness set to 40% and Bump Height set to 100%. If you lower both of those to 0%, the surface will be flat and reflect better and be less grainy. I didn't have your original groundplane for my setup, so the reflections in the block get a little funky toward the top - I just used your uploaded image on a Front Projection groundplane.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    mTp
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  5. #5
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonroePoteet View Post
    The default Gold surface in LW2018 has Roughness set to 40% and Bump Height set to 100%. If you lower both of those to 0%, the surface will be flat and reflect better and be less grainy.
    Well, that cleans up the surface, but doesn't address how dismal the surface looks color-wise, esp. compared side-by-side with the LW11 default Gold surface.

    Considering surface color's an aspect where PBR surfaces should look better by default, those results are... disappointing, to say the least.
    John W.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Well, that cleans up the surface, but doesn't address how dismal the surface looks color-wise, esp. compared side-by-side with the LW11 default Gold surface.

    Considering surface color's an aspect where PBR surfaces should look better by default, those results are... disappointing, to say the least.
    I think that has more to do with the RGB color in the preset; it's not really gold (which is generally sRGB 255, 215, 0) so specifically in a PBR render that actually emulates the physical characteristics, it isn't going to render out looking like gold.

    That seems more like an error on the part of the individual who created the preset; in this instance, they chose a color which is more like a bronze (sRGB 165, 113, 100) or copper (sRGB 184, 115, 51). Possibly, the gold surface color wasn't updated.

    Change the surface color values to the correct values, and the surface color will look more like gold.

  7. #7
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    This is what default Gold preset looks like in LW2018.0.4 on my machine (default gradient backdrop, environment light + GI).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    and here is one with an HDRI

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Gold_Buddah_HDRI.JPG 
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ID:	141731

    If I do a google search on Gold and look at images, it is obvious that gold has a wide spectrum of how it looks, especially the roughness.
    Last edited by Cageman; 05-16-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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  8. #8
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    This thread confirms to me that 2018 has an issue with conductor / metallic shading quality. Not a single 2018 render I saw so far has any convincing metal surface. The quality / photorealism is nowhere close to popular 3rd party or built-in CPU or GPU render engines. In other render engines I use, I get immediate good results using reflectance, GGX or similar shading settings (using manual or HDRI lighting), even in the material preview or viewport.

  9. #9
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    This thread confirms to me that 2018 has an issue with conductor / metallic shading quality. Not a single 2018 render I saw so far has any convincing metal surface. The quality / photorealism is nowhere close to popular 3rd party or built-in CPU or GPU render engines. In other render engines I use, I get immediate good results using reflectance, GGX or similar shading settings (using manual or HDRI lighting), even in the material preview or viewport.
    How about this one?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    How about this one
    Thanks for posting, definitely better then the one before

  11. #11
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    How do you like this gold?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	gold.jpg 
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ID:	141734
    LW7.5D, LW2015.3, LW2018.0.x running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  12. #12
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Thanks for posting, definitely better then the one before
    Yep... metals are very dependent on how you light them and what they actually can reflect. Metals in Octane or Redshift can easily look like **** if you don't light them properly. Will have some more exampels of different metals with proper lighting comming up.
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  13. #13
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    ...can easily look like **** if you don't light them properly....
    Indeed. That's what I was demonstrating in my non-LW noisy and poorly lit render above. That's a default gold preset rendered with a default HDRI in a program 2x as expensive as LW. I was attempting to show the not-so "immediate good results" one can find in other programs.

    Even if you have a preset metal material, you need the right reflected environment.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Indeed. That's what I was demonstrating in my non-LW noisy and poorly lit render above. That's a default gold preset rendered with a default HDRI in a program 2x as expensive as LW. I was attempting to show the not-so "immediate good results" one can find in other programs.

    Even if you have a preset metal material, you need the right reflected environment.
    Of course it's possible to create crap renders with every engine, the question is hiw much effort it takes to create a good one. In your example the render is very grainy and the bump mapping doesn't look right to me.

  15. #15
    Charlesian2000
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    Found out what the problem was... it was the default gold preset, the roughness was cranked up... doh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman;

    [ATTACH=CONFIG
    141733[/ATTACH]
    I do like this gold though

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