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Thread: Degrees, not Radians

  1. #1
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    Degrees, not Radians

    Hi,

    in the Deuce vids, there is a spot where the instances are being setup and there is some node work going on.

    Deuce has to convert from degrees to radians to do his thing.

    Please could we keep the internal going on in radians but expose parameters to the user/artist in degrees.

    Maya used to do this and it made it really unfriendly to use, as is amply demonstrated in the vid where Deuce has to get the calc out and do a conversion.


    This isn't a lightwavey workflow. The lightwave way is the ability to do calculations in input boxes, having input and setup simple, with the option to go "full complexity" if needed; the dragging of connections and having IO convert automatically.

    thanks


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  2. #2
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    +1. Radians might be convenient for programmers feeding algorithms, but they're not that useful for users mentally visualizing rotations.
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  3. #3
    Big fan of coffee raw-m's Avatar
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    I agree. In the meantime you could “show output” on the gradient key and pipe an Angle node into the alpha channel - works in degrees that way.
    Last edited by raw-m; 02-16-2018 at 01:38 AM.

  4. #4
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    TrueArt's Node Library
    http://nodelibrary.trueart.eu
    has two nodes:
    Degrees To Radians
    and
    Radians To Degrees
    to convert one to another.
    So take Const > Scalar (in Degrees) plug to Degrees To Radians node, plug somewhere in in radians. Voila.


    I have other idea:
    each scalar input field should have option to add multiplier by user.
    RMB on input field, pick up option, set multiplier to e.g. 2*3.14159265/360.0,
    and LW will convert whatever user entered, on the fly.
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  5. #5
    Big fan of coffee raw-m's Avatar
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    Do these work with 2018 Sensei?

  6. #6
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    TrueArt's Node Library
    http://nodelibrary.trueart.eu
    has two nodes:
    Degrees To Radians
    and
    Radians To Degrees
    to convert one to another.
    So take Const > Scalar (in Degrees) plug to Degrees To Radians node, plug somewhere in in radians. Voila.
    Sure, sure, that'll work too, but it'll be more performant if they just did the conversion in C/C++ as part of the nodes themselves, not required another node. Offer a switch for degrees or radians, and do the multiply inline, and that's a bunch less operations than having to pull everything through another node just to get a multiply operation.

    The difference may not matter much in this case (depending on how many instances are involved), but in shader/deformer/displacement paths it'll add up quickly.
    Last edited by jwiede; 02-16-2018 at 08:19 AM.
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  7. #7
    Vacant, pretty vacant pinkmouse's Avatar
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    I suggested this about 4 years ago...
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  8. #8
    skeptic lertola2's Avatar
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    Now that you can actually make compound nodes on the Mac it is very simple to create your own conversion functions.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by lertola2 View Post
    Now that you can actually make compound nodes on the Mac it is very simple to create your own conversion functions.

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    that’s great but with the utmost of respect; most people don’t want to do this. lightwave was about speed and this is complicating things and slowing things down.

    the old saying “ keep it simple stupid” is well worth remembering when it comes to lw development.

    personally, i hope the dev team go back to this 2015.3 philosophy with node buttons dotted around for when we want complexity and control.

    thanks for pointing out though, it’s good to know.

  10. #10
    Vacant, pretty vacant pinkmouse's Avatar
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    Yeah, I even made my own on 11.6, but that is not the point. Radians are useful for some maths stuff, but for 95% of the time degrees are much more user friendly, so should have been set as the default. Yet another example of how LW3D makes stuff unnecessarily complex for no apparent reason.
    Al
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  11. #11
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkmouse View Post
    Yet another example of how LW3D makes stuff unnecessarily complex for no apparent reason.
    Except its not. Under the hood everything is in radians (cos thats how the math libraries are made). You can certainly go putting a lil conversion inside of nodes everwhere where you enter a angular value, but that means every input and ouput on every node thats taking angular value has to do the conversion, which adds more calc time. When you've only got a handful of nodes going on in a scene, no big deal, if you're building more complex deformations in nodal, setting up rigs, instance setups... large complex node flows all over, all that extra calculation would start to impact scene performance.

    Programmers have a (good) habit of taking out stuff that performs unnecessary work repeatedly.

    (Also, there's really no need to break out the calculator all the time... just type value in degs/57.29 in the entry field... done)
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RebelHill View Post
    Except its not. Under the hood everything is in radians (cos thats how the math libraries are made). You can certainly go putting a lil conversion inside of nodes everwhere where you enter a angular value, but that means every input and ouput on every node thats taking angular value has to do the conversion, which adds more calc time. When you've only got a handful of nodes going on in a scene, no big deal, if you're building more complex deformations in nodal, setting up rigs, instance setups... large complex node flows all over, all that extra calculation would start to impact scene performance.

    Programmers have a (good) habit of taking out stuff that performs unnecessary work repeatedly.

    (Also, there's really no need to break out the calculator all the time... just type value in degs/57.29 in the entry field... done)
    why not just have both? problem solved and everyone is happy.

    programmers have a habit of making something that makes sense to them without thinking how it’s going to be used and who is going to be using it.

    no offence meant but most don’t remember to type in a conversion.

    additional: case in point. you, rebelhill, have an excellent grasp of this type of thing but the majority do not. hence the reason you have made a video on shading and rendering settings for the new 2018 and others have purchased it. this is the same reason why we need degrees and not radians; for the majority, the masses, to make lightwave very accessible to all. hence, fast and invaluable in creating cg content quickly and efficiently.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 02-18-2018 at 09:37 AM.

  13. #13

    the video >
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDiainyPHys#t=17m00s

    (Also, there's really no need to break out the calculator all the time... just type value in degs/57.29 in the entry field... done)
    i always liked that in LW
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  14. #14
    There's no point to change anything in this case. Keeping UI to degrees and data to radians is fine.

    Deuce just had to drop either an Angle node there. And I would do the whole setup differently.

    Plus if you want to work in degrees values, you can always do that and then convert the output with one of the node libraries to radians.

    If you want to know more and see why working in radius can actually be less work check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSE2L9HYQac


    I have more issues with % percentage inputs, where to put 10.5 you have to put down 1050%, or the fact sliding a scalar input from 1.0 to 0.0 takes forever, or the fact the "LERP" node we have is the Mixer but you're presented with color inputs which are not very useful if you just want to interpolate between floats or position vectors.

    Compound mockup. No UI.


    There's a lot to be revamped in LW nodes though, so...
    Last edited by probiner; 02-18-2018 at 09:18 AM.

  15. #15
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    excellent probiner; now, how to translate this into actual features in the ui that everyone can benefit from?

    cue lwg input..

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