Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 46 to 56 of 56

Thread: NPR Line creation test!!! Challenge

  1. #46
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    Second post in this series.
    In the LineStyle Menu, the next tab is Color. I have opened the Add Modifier Menu so that the options can be seen. Some of these Modifiers are the same, but are under the other Tabs to effect that parameter, and all of them are part of the Linestyle, of which you can have many.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Blender-Freestyle_LineColor-Menu.PNG 
Views:	58 
Size:	24.9 KB 
ID:	139912
    As noted in this Alpha Tab, the similar Add Modifiers, but this time applied to the Alpha of the Line. Modifiers can be stacked, and their order in the stack can be re-arranged.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Blender-Freestyle_LineAlpha-Menu.PNG 
Views:	20 
Size:	21.9 KB 
ID:	139913
    Next Tab over is Thickness, with its own set of Parameters and then Add Modifiers options, stackable and re-arrangeable.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Blender-Freestyle_LineThickness-Menu.PNG 
Views:	47 
Size:	34.2 KB 
ID:	139914
    The final one I am going to include is the Geometry Tab, even tho there is a Texture Tab, this branches off to Images to be referenced, etc. and needs separate discussion.
    Note again, the Add Modifiers option which I have pulled down. These also can be stacked, re-arranged, and have there own parameters inside of the Modifiers, once chosen.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Blender-Freestyle_LineGeometry-Menu.PNG 
Views:	24 
Size:	23.6 KB 
ID:	139915
    If and when Blender implements a more RealTime Line Rendering solution to their Cycles and EeVee Render Engines, (not yet prioritized for the Blender 2.8 release, but actively being discussed) which would allow the tweaking of these Menu items, to be coupled with On-Screen feedback, their acceptance will sky-rocket in the Anime, Animation, Illustration, Arch-Viz market places. Lightwave already has the RealTime display, which is great, it just needs less noodle/node logic/math interface. All of these are behind the Tabs and Menus and Modifiers, and if I want to get really adventuresome, I could, but I don't need to, but Blender is missing the crucial RealTime aspect, which Lightwave HAS.
    Last edited by paulhart; 02-03-2018 at 12:30 PM.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  2. #47
    Super Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    3,513
    thanks for this thread..We will me mining it at work.
    This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government, CG Networks or CGTALK.com. The opinions expressed on this posting are on my own volition.

  3. #48
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    thanks for this thread..We will me mining it at work.
    Who is this mysterious "We" that you refer to, am I to imagine your group in Washington, if so I am intrigued to imagine how it will be used. At least 'someone' in the field it paying attention, now if a Newtek developer just chimed in .... but that would be a showing of the cards, so not likely. I am forever hopeful that this can be implemented in Lightwave, full artistic controls, with on-screen display feedback. The nodes and math are always still there for those who think easily in that vein, and as some have already demonstrated, to good effect. My preferences are for this more visual, interactive mode.
    Last edited by paulhart; 02-03-2018 at 06:38 PM.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  4. #49
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    So, we have a slight impasse, as demonstrated in this thread, a bit of the 'blind men' and the elephant analogy. There appears to be three(3) distinct ways of approaching NPR related solutions.
    -----The first method(1), we can call node-centric_math/logic, is very comfortable with Nodal mazes and assumes that a little Trig, piping, and math/logic can solve any problem, and . . . they are right. This style is dominate in Lightwave currently, whereas we used to have unRealXtreme2 up to version 11 of Lightwave
    -----The second(2) method is more inclined to work through menu options with verbal clues, ala Blender Freestyle, where some of the language is borrowed from its technical context of development but it can be navigated, as the descriptors are LineWidth, LineTaper, etc. with sliders, which again, are excellent for any who work in this manner, and, again, they are right.
    -----Finally we have the third(3) method, which uses imagery, Presets, visual examples, with a minimum set of variables attached to the visuals, to allow variations and these can then be saved by the user, complete with an icon sample of the style created for ease of selection later, and, again, they are right.

    Now move to the production setting. The Art Director looks at the dailies and comments, "I want it moodier, and softer, . . " while doing show and tell with images cut from magazines and photo stills, to which each of the different mindset TD's would offer their different approach.
    (1)"Yes, I can whip up a fine Nodal salad to do just that." Art Director responds, with "Okay, show me what you have, as soon as you have it."
    (2)"Oh, I think a few adjustments of the sliders in the menu trees will take care of this." Same response by the Art Director, but it may be demonstrated on screen, by this approach, in which case the feedback curve is much quicker and closer to the Art Director's vision.
    (3)"Here are some examples on screen of the scene showing variations that I think solve your request." To which, the Art Director, points at the corresponding example and says, "That's it!!," or .... "Something between these two is what I am looking for."

    All of these are viable solutions, and, again, they are all right, but the expectation is what does it look like, on screen. Each of us who work with NPR falls into one of these three(3) styles of working, with some feeling comfortable moving between more than one method, but ultimately it is a question about what shows up on screen, how fast can I get to the solution, and how easy is it to adjust and modify (tweak) for the effect I want.

    Discuss this among yourselves and let me know. I tend to want method (3), can certainly use (2) and I am able to flounder around with (1) but at the end of the day, I want it on-screen, in RealTime, so that the Art Director in me can just get on with the process of creating "Art."
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  5. #50
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    I know that I am hitting the wall, when my Google searches return postings I did years ago, on this forum and others, along with other people responding to my ideas with requests of their own and suggestions as to how this can be accomplished.

    Lightwave used to have unReal Xtreme2 from d-creation of Japan, but stopped at version 11 of Lightwave and it was free so there was little incentive to update, particularly due to underlying code changes. I have written to d-creation, but suspect it is a dead-end now.
    http://d-creation.sakura.ne.jp/plugi...x_japanese.htm

    Great article from awhile back, talks of Freestyle for Blender and the stand alone Jot. I have threads on BlenderArtists.org/forum, current and ancient. The upcoming Blender 2.8 has great possibilities, but Line Rendering as late on the list of priorities.
    http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/e...stic-rendering

    PSoft Cel Shading and Line Rendering, 3dsMax I sent emails to them years ago about porting to Lightwave, no plans.
    https://www.psoft.co.jp/en/product/pencil/3dsmax/

    Illustrate! for 3dsMax
    http://www.davidgould.com/Illustrate...lustrate53.htm

    SketchFX for SketchUp
    https://www.fluidinteractive.com/pro...ions/sketchfx/

    re:solve, Non-Photorealistic Rendering (NPR) Kit for modo. I wrestle too much with modo on Shader Tree and NPR Kit, using modo primarily as a replacement for Modeler in many aspects, particularly in UV Map creation.
    http://resolve.ca/modo-non-photorealistic-rendering/

    UnReal Engine from Epic Games, cel shading plugin. I have explored this, but it means moving all the elements of the production into UnReal, which has its own set of learning curves and constraints.
    https://www.unrealengine.com/marketp...k#&gid=1&pid=1

    Sketch & Toon Plugin for C4D. You can look this one up, if you want to, but it is for C4D, which I don't have and won't buy.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  6. #51
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754

    Encouraging response from a C - C++ developer, jwiede.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post [http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....5#post1536845]
    So, the question I would return to, is, does this allow the possibility of "including" or "excluding" a 'Lineset' to which Line Rendering style could be applied. What's the point of being able to query the system to find edges, if I can't then do something, like render a given line segment in some preferred style?? This assumes that an addition is made to the Edge Rendering Menu for 'selected' Edges, and that a Selection Set of Edges can be saved, without the excess baggage of a Falloff, that currently comes with Weight Maps of a given Edge.

    [The encouraging response by jwiede on the other thread]
    Immediately? No. It is possible, though. There's some infrastructure needed first, as you note there needs to be a tool to construct edge selection sets visible within Layout, and each shader where applicable would need modification to accept those edge sets, associate render properties with them, and so forth. If it's important to you, then I recommend filing feature requests asking for selection-by-edge-set and associating render edges properties by edge set as well.

    Also, some enterprising third-party developer might be willing to provide most of the pieces needed (for cost, likely), along with nodes to access edge sets, and custom shader nodes that understand and can associate properties with those edge sets.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  7. #52
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    6,064
    The biggest obstacle at the moment is getting the shaders to accept edge sets as input. I'm trying to suss out a way to do so that doesn't require shader modification, but that's a tricky problem. Writing something to allow load/save of edge selection sets in Layout is fairly trivial by comparison, but there just isn't a lot you can do with an edge set in Layout at the moment. Newtek will presumably fix that given time, but that doesn't help now.

    A mechanism could just programmatically (behind the scenes) do what you've already tried, converting the edge set to weightmaps on the fly and then submitting the weightmap/vmaps instead (and that is likely a useful node in any case, because shaders accept those now). While that approach might allow some additional flexibility and/or precision to be added, though, it still likely has the same "bleed issues" you already encountered. As I said, a tricky problem but I'm not giving up on it yet.

    The alternative, providing alternate NPR shader(s), that support edge set input, and so forth, is quite a substantial undertaking. Not impossible, and if that's the only way to do it now, I have some ideas there, but I'd first prefer to convince myself there's no way to get edge sets working (well) with the existing LW2018 NPR rendering functionality.
    Last edited by jwiede; 02-11-2018 at 11:24 AM.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 1080ti

  8. #53
    _
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    moravia
    Posts
    1,016
    I got a link to a video where Mr. Tasos Anastasiades talks a bit about the difference between boring lines and interesting lines.
    His case is a bit different since Poser doesn't seem to give any options for making interesting lines, so he has to retrace everything in PS with a Wacom, but he makes it very clear on what the impact if an image with homogeneous single-width lines is, compared to the same image with more line variation.
    https://youtu.be/J2P4LDr9a5E?t=53m29s

  9. #54
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    JCG, Yes! Without some variation in line weight, drawing becomes relatively 'dry' and 'technical.' I had the good fortune to get an MFA in drawing before turning to this field. We would study the drawings of Rembrandt, Van Gogh, with deliberate, close emphasis on the variable weight of the lines drawn, and where they were made thicker in contrast to places where the line could literally fade to nothing. This made the drawings 'live.' I had more than a couple of drawing teachers who would come over to a drawing I was working on, and use my 'same pencil, graphite, etc.' and draw the same edge I was drawing of the model, but give weight and character to the line, to complement the features. Sometimes the weight of the line would function as an indication of 'ambient occlusion' by being thicker. Sometimes, fade to a wisp, to indicate the edge most in the light. Sometimes to help define the turning of an edge, helping to imply the 3D space the objects inhabit.
    I appreciate the video example, fully agree with the discussion, and work to achieve some of this in the renders, whether it be for illustration still, or animation. There are software tools that can be made to emulate these aspects, more than a 'plain line,' and I look to Lightwave to implement these more artistic tools in the near future.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  10. #55
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    There is a good reason that we admire and value the drawings of Rembrandt, Hokusai, van Gogh, and then more recently, Hayao Miyazaki, Sylvan Chomet. I am including a sample of drawing styles I have studied, to attempt to give reference to what is meant to achieve. Note how the line gets 'thick' in weighted folds, areas of Ambient Occlusion, emphasis on turns of the fabric or object, thin on the 'sun' side and fatter on the 'away' side. Notice also the different weights of line, some modulated by distance, some for effect. Most have variation along the line, and often taper at the ends, some abruptly, some slower. Part of the "challenge" is to address those who have not studied drawing, yet are instinctively drawn to those images that appear more "lively" because of the more artful line. There are plenty of examples from Japanese animation, but these will serve the discussion.
    "Before," we had UnReal eXtreme2 for Lightwave, with brush stroke options, and thick and thin, but after the software architecture changes they are no longer updating, that I know of, so a 'replacement' is needed.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	line-drawing_example.png 
Views:	72 
Size:	2.08 MB 
ID:	140180
    Last edited by paulhart; 02-18-2018 at 01:46 PM.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  11. #56
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    I realized after posting, that some of my references may not be well known to this crowd, but are worthy of review. "Spirited Away," by Hiyao Miyazaki and "Illusionist" by Sylvan Chomet come to mind, but there are many more. I am including another set of examples, intentionally not including any with color, so as to not distract from the focus of the discussion.
    Note how the weight of the line acts as indication of implied light source, and fine features selected for thin fine lines and other parts for thick. Being able to selectively Include and Exclude Edges for LineStyles is an important tool in the array an artist can bring to an image.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	line-drawing_example2.png 
Views:	62 
Size:	823.7 KB 
ID:	140181
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •