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Thread: NPR Line creation test!!! Challenge

  1. #31
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    I know that it is being worked on . . . from what I am told, but here is an example of trying to use this on an actual project, rather than a simple test file.
    This is a character that I created awhile ago for an illustration/animation project that I was hoping to use, but it is not feasible in its current state.
    The 'bug' is in the Edge Shading, making the choice for Sharp Creases, WHAT sharp edges??? And Other Edges generates all Edges being rendered, even tho I attempted to use the same Node setup as the simple project to generate some lines around the eyes using a weight map for the Other Edges. It shouldn't be??!! I have to believe that the Japanese studios wouldn't tolerate this in production work so why do I have to??? Annoyed, I know, so close, but then.....
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    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  2. #32
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    In a related issue, I would welcome the ability to "Exclude" or "Include" any given line segment, by Assignment via Vertex or Weight Map. Note in the relatively okay render to the left above, I have ended up with black 'silhouette' lines around the eyes and the mouth. Not something I want at that strength, wish I could "Exclude" them or make a group and assign a more reduced Lineset to them. These are concepts that are native to Blender and other software. It is a level of 'granularity' which needs to be expected at this stage of NPR work.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  3. #33
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    Weight Maps can easily be used to modify the thickness of lines, as can anything else you can plug in to the nodal network such as distance to a null or a texture. Note: There is a bug concerning intersecting edges. This type of edge doesn’t currently respect weight maps or textures, but this has been reported as fixed in the next patch.

  4. #34
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    The 'bug' is in the Edge Shading, making the choice for Sharp Creases, WHAT sharp edges???
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    You know that the smoothing threshold in the surface editor is defining the sharp creases, right?

  5. #35
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Ztreem, thank you for commenting. I went in and found the Smoothing Angle set way too low on some of the objects, particularly 'the body' which generated excess lines for Sharp Creases, so that is helpful... not entirely sure how the low value ever got set??? I was aware of this, but do not remember setting it "so low??" However, the 'bug' in Other Edges, persists, and I can't get it to respond to differential Weight Maps, in any way like the simple Cube/Blob exercise done earlier. I will take them at their word that some kind of bug fix was warranted and will be included in the next incremental Bug Patch.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  6. #36
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Hypersuperduper, Hello... If you could demonstrate, with examples, nodes, settings, etc. I know it would help me, and I can assume it would help others. You say it rather casually. . . but it isn't obvious, and I have any number of Weight Maps, and Logic Nodes, trying to make edges appear or not, let alone Tapering, in response to Weight Maps in any controllable way. Right now I have a Weight Map for the full body, and then a Weight Map with the eyes and mouth weighted with negative values in an attempt to tell the Silhouette Edges to NOT render them, but I can't seem to get it to respond, and Tapering, whoa, not even in the mix... ;->)
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  7. #37
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    Hypersuperduper, Hello... If you could demonstrate, with examples, nodes, settings, etc. I know it would help me, and I can assume it would help others. You say it rather casually. . . but it isn't obvious, and I have any number of Weight Maps, and Logic Nodes, trying to make edges appear or not, let alone Tapering, in response to Weight Maps in any controllable way. Right now I have a Weight Map for the full body, and then a Weight Map with the eyes and mouth weighted with negative values in an attempt to tell the Silhouette Edges to NOT render them, but I can't seem to get it to respond, and Tapering, whoa, not even in the mix... ;->)
    You have to think in terms of 0-1 as values for tapering and opacity. So a weight map with a value of -100 would equal to -1 and I’m not sure that is a good value for taper lines. Use a weight value of 0 for no lines and 100 for full line thickness. If you want the line to taper you need to do a gradient from 0 to 1(0-100 weight value in a weight map).

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    Hypersuperduper, Hello... If you could demonstrate, with examples, nodes, settings, etc. I know it would help me, and I can assume it would help others. You say it rather casually. . . but it isn't obvious, and I have any number of Weight Maps, and Logic Nodes, trying to make edges appear or not, let alone Tapering, in response to Weight Maps in any controllable way. Right now I have a Weight Map for the full body, and then a Weight Map with the eyes and mouth weighted with negative values in an attempt to tell the Silhouette Edges to NOT render them, but I can't seem to get it to respond, and Tapering, whoa, not even in the mix... ;->)
    here is a screenshot of a dead simple setup.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    (how do I make images big btw?)

    one weigh map inner holes 50% to everything else 100%

  9. #39
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    Hypersuperduper, Hello... If you could demonstrate, with examples, nodes, settings, etc. I know it would help me, and I can assume it would help others. You say it rather casually. . . but it isn't obvious, and I have any number of Weight Maps, and Logic Nodes, trying to make edges appear or not, let alone Tapering, in response to Weight Maps in any controllable way. Right now I have a Weight Map for the full body, and then a Weight Map with the eyes and mouth weighted with negative values in an attempt to tell the Silhouette Edges to NOT render them, but I can't seem to get it to respond, and Tapering, whoa, not even in the mix... ;->)
    It does seem like "include" and "exclude" of specific object edges would offer a cleaner, more efficient workflow for selection purposes, versus trying to use weightmaps+logic/gradients. Using weightmaps + logic/gradients seems to result in a bunch of maps and nodes feeding each object's different line types, creating lots of interconnected behaviors and side effects, and generally complicating object/scene maintenance.

    File a feature request with a proposed mechanism and see what they say?
    Last edited by jwiede; 02-02-2018 at 04:37 PM.
    John W.
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  10. #40
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    It does seem like "include" and "exclude" of specific object edges would offer a cleaner UX for selection purposes, versus trying to use weightmaps+logic/gradients (which tends to lead a lot of maps and nodes for each object, with a lot of tightly-interconnected behaviors to check, complicating the object/scene maintenance).

    File a feature request with a proposed mechanism and see what they say?
    Could work in some cases but for example a silhouette edge is very hard to select as it is based on the viewing angle from the camera and for animation its even harder. Gradients based on objects positions is more flexible, I think. More options is always good though.

  11. #41
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ztreem View Post
    Could work in some cases but for example a silhouette edge is very hard to select as it is based on the viewing angle from the camera and for animation its even harder. Gradients based on objects positions is more flexible, I think. More options is always good though.
    Agreed, that's a particular workflow that may be less suited to specific edge inclusion (though exclusion still seems to offer value there). At the same time, Paulhart's described a bunch of cases where having direct edge exclusion would be a lot more efficient UX than trying to reduce/negate influence using weightmaps, etc. Some of the prior inclusion scenarios he's described also seem more efficiently-defined using direct inclusion, versus trying to manage weightmaps, etc.

    IMO, offering direct inclusion/exclusion edge sets clearly offers more than enough UX/workflow efficiency benefits to merit its addition (versus only having weightmaps+logic/gradients). At the very least, it's worth a feature request. Whether it ever gets implemented is a completely different issue.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2018.0.7 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 980ti

  12. #42
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Agreed, that's a particular workflow that may be less suited to specific edge inclusion (though exclusion still seems to offer value there). At the same time, Paulhart's described a bunch of cases where having direct edge exclusion would be a lot more efficient UX than trying to reduce/negate influence using weightmaps, etc. Some of the prior inclusion scenarios he's described also seem more efficiently-defined using direct inclusion, versus trying to manage weightmaps, etc.

    IMO, offering direct inclusion/exclusion edge sets clearly offers more than enough UX/workflow efficiency benefits to merit its addition (versus only having weightmaps+logic/gradients). At the very least, it's worth a feature request. Whether it ever gets implemented is a completely different issue.
    I agree completely. This ia also a very good example where a native weight/texture paint tool in layout would be perfect. I wonder why that is so hard to implement? its been requested since at least lw 7.5 and third party has proven it possible.

  13. #43
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    how would edge sets work since they are generated on the fly?

    I am not sure how much more granular it can get. you can already disable/enable edges generated by different situations without even opening the node editor silhouette, intersect, sharp creases etc... but since the edges are generated on the fly based on the viewing angle relative to the geometry I am not sure how you would organize beyond that.


    You can already steer the thickness of nodes with a null position and a falloff, and lw2018's falloff nodes make that super simple, you dont need to set up any complicated logic, just two nodes, an item info and a falloff. you can easily chain them together as well with simple arithmetic nodes. I am working on a cel shaded character on which I layer several different inputs to drive the line thickness .I am using a light incidence, a procedural and 5 different nulls for animatable line thickness. it works very well.
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    Here is a screen grab of the null based falloff nodal for edge thickness (its in a compound node the gets factor it into the light incidence and procedural thinning before connecting to the edge outputs, but you cant see that part here). I have five nulls I can move around and scale to thin the edges as needed. I have them on the hands and feet and head right now. it works well.
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  14. #44
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    you really want global edge rendering control with local object override.

  15. #45
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    A bit of clarification on my part. I have been a strong Lightwave supporter, and continue, even more so now, but some show and tell examples may help the discussion. I worked for a year as a User of Freestyle during development, offering suggestions and critiques, while actively maintaining the 32bit builds of the Blender Freestyle branch on GraphicAll.org. I appreciate all of the artist friendly choices that it offers, but find it frustrating in its current implementation, which, due to the Render Engine it is tied to (Blender Internal-which is being deprecated) it is a Post Processing Line Render, happening as a separate function at the end of the render. This means that there is a long, tweak, render, review, repeat & rinse cycle that is a bit blind. The VALUE of Lightwave is the immediacy of the on-screen display of any changes I make, this is wonderful. The current downside, is convoluted and elaborate node trees, with math and logic functions tied to Nulls, that will work, if constructed correctly but are overly "noodle-node" centric and not at all artist friendly, as I do both, preferring the more direct approach of Blender. The first step, for Edge Marking is in a menu under Edges, Mark Freestyle Edge (or Clear) in which any selected set of Edges can be selected. Much like Weight Map or Vertex Map, but without any Falloff, just the Edge itself!!!
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    I am including a series of menus, the first of which is the Lineset Menu. Here, a Lineset (one or more) is defined by five(5) buttons, with 'switches' to set on or off below. More parameters than most will need but set to meet almost any set of conditions about Inclusion, Exclusion, Silhouette, Edge Mark, etc.
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    Once these are in place the emphasis shifts to LineStyle, which has six(6) tabs for the definition of a LineStyle, which is going to be applied to a LineSet. Note that here, I have it on Strokes, with Chaining checked, and Sketchy chosen, for a wonderful hand drawn style line.
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    For ease of commenting and digestion I will include subsequent Menus on the following posts. I hope this helps in the discussion. Please remember, these are from Blender, but similar types are in Maya, Pencil(Max). The REALLY exciting aspect of Lightwave is the immediacy of feedback, on screen!!!
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

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