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Thread: NPR Line creation test!!! Challenge

  1. #16
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Sharp creases not rendering correctly...

    I am in discussion with Customer Support, on a BUG Report, over the Line Rendering. I am including an example here of the output. Left hand objects have smoothing turned on, while the right hand objects have the smoothing turned off. The Silhouette rendering of the lines works fine on either side, but the Sharp Creases are incorrect on the right hand models. The areas circled in red are errors. I am also including the test file, for anyone else to investigate. These all worked fine in 2015 and Version 11, and I had higher hopes for NPR with 2018.
    Could someone else try this also, as support is telling me that the right hand objects are not "well designed" for the effect I want. ??? What?? I want Sharp Creases to be rendered, which does not include Flat Faces, and certainly doesn't include curved edges going away on the opposite side showing thru.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    The areas circled in red are errors. I am also including the test file, for anyone else to investigate.
    They appear if Smoothing is off,
    and disappear if Smoothing is on (and angle threshold is high).

    You can make surface flat, by plugging Input > Geometric Normal to Normal input.
    Last edited by Sensei; 01-22-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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  3. #18
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Sensei, thank you, I was beginning to think that I was the only one. Sharp Creases worked fine in 2015 and Version 11. Perhaps someone who still has those version can check. I ran out of disk space so I only keep the most recent version on-board. Customer Support was trying to tell me that I just didn't design the "Sharp Sphere" correctly to display lines in NPR, and I about fell over, what is the designation Sharp Creases meant to do??? LOL
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  4. #19
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    You can always make lines inside of regular Surface Node Editor, instead of Edge Node Editor, like:

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  5. #20
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    Sensei, thank you, I was beginning to think that I was the only one. Sharp Creases worked fine in 2015 and Version 11. Perhaps someone who still has those version can check. I ran out of disk space so I only keep the most recent version on-board. Customer Support was trying to tell me that I just didn't design the "Sharp Sphere" correctly to display lines in NPR, and I about fell over, what is the designation Sharp Creases meant to do??? LOL
    I've still got both (albeit for OSX), I'll see how they look in 11.6.3 and 2015.3 and try to provide images....

    Ah, bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, do you have both 11.x and 2015.x versions of the scene, or just the LW2018 version?

    In order to properly test they worked in 11.x and 2015.x, I'd need scenes for those versions (as well as prior-versioned LWO). Taking the LW2018 scene and object and "back-exporting" isn't really legit for testing they worked properly in older versions.
    Last edited by jwiede; 01-22-2018 at 07:18 PM.
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  6. #21
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    Use incidence node to filter out polygons that are behind..



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  7. #22
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    jwiede, great, look forward to confirmation, or not, which ever, will be instructive. Sensei, fun stuff, but the appearance of those lines on the 'far side' seems unaccountable for a solid object??? Anyone else??
    Sensei, just saw your latest post using Incidence and multiply to sort them out a bit, but the spurious extra lines on the forward cube(right-hand) flat faces area, do not qualify as 'Sharp Creases' so they shouldn't get drawn. Did you apply your technique to the "Sharp Cube" also.
    Also noted is that the Curved Line (thick) on the right-hand sphere still shows up some???
    I will try to see if I can replicate your settings and tweak.
    Customer Support has gone home for the day, so we are on our own until tomorrow. Thanks everybody.
    Last edited by paulhart; 01-22-2018 at 07:12 PM.
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  8. #23
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    I loaded this line-spheretest.lwo in fresh new scene, clicked Edges > Sharp Creases.. and what is behind is not rendered..

    So, you need to send them bug report with exactly the above scene, to figure out why it's causing issue, and fresh scene does not.
    Last edited by Sensei; 01-22-2018 at 10:36 PM.
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  9. #24
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    I continue trying to get creative results with Line Rendering, and I thought of Sensei and other creative coders, as I am not the person to 'code nodes' for Line Rendering, but they might be??? I have used Blender 2.79+ which has a great variety of choices, but Freestyle is a Post Processing Line Render, which is annoying as there is no immediate feedback as there is in VPR and Lightwave, but Lightwave lacks some features.
    I would welcome a more direct way to adjust line thickness, so that I could have a silhouette which has a value of '0' for half the way around, then ramps up to the full value, or got thicker in areas of Occlusion.
    I would love to have Linesets, in Lightwave, like I have in Blender, where a given Edge can have more than one Line style applied, and Multipy functionally so they combine.
    I would love to have a Sketchy effect for the lines in Lightwave.
    I would welcome a Smooth function to soften the look of the lines rendered.
    I really want to have a Set Edges option in Lightwave, in which a given Edge can be "Marked" and then have a line style applied just to it. This can work wonders on facial lines, as I can select three contiguous edges in a face loop, 'Mark" them and then have a Tapered line assigned to that Marked set, so the line starts from '0' swells, then fades again, all in the course of three polygon edges of a loop. Another way that this can be used is to 'Mark" the line down the center of the nose on a character, and then set it so the line only shows, or gets rendered when the angle is great enough, as it the figure is turn 3/4 view.
    These are some of options that I would like Lightwave to be able to do. I continue to play with Cos, Sin, Tan, Vectors, etc. but not much difference, as I do not know what I am doing.
    I have submitted a 'Bug" report to Lightwave on the 'odd' rendering of the surface of the 'blue' objects in this render, and have not heard back from them.
    Note that I have created a "stitched effect" on the tan sphere, but Weight Painting it and using that info for "Other Edges." Almost there, but the Falloff of the Weight Values gives the stitch effect, rather than just the Weighted line as hoped. I added some pylons to test Intersecting Edges, works as expected.
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  10. #25
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    Stitch effect can be filtered out by using Logic node this way:



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    ps. Ignore this "5" in "If True".

    ps2. Plug Weight node output also to "True", and it'll be passed to Taper input.
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  11. #26
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    I used two weight maps, one for filtering with 0 and 100% only, second one for giving value for Taper. And edge smoothly disappeared (two edges Set Map Value 0%).


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  12. #27
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Well done!! I got the 'stitch' effect to disappear, thank you, but something about the weight values and the 0 to 100 didn't make it thru to me as I can't yet generate the tapered effect on that line, but!! great work on getting a "Marked" seam effect. I don't know if you were able to get rid of the 'dark silhouette' lines that curve thru the back of the blue sphere. I see that you were able to get the small lines to not show thru, however, in the bug report I submitted, it should be noted that the only thin lines that should show up on the blue sphere would be the 'sharp' edges and not all of the polygon edges that you show. That ends up looking like "Other Edges."
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    Well done!! I got the 'stitch' effect to disappear, thank you, but something about the weight values and the 0 to 100 didn't make it thru to me as I can't yet generate the tapered effect on that line, but!! great work on getting a "Marked" seam effect.
    Load object in Modeler,
    select edge, select loop,
    W drop-down, [new], Create "Weight" Weight Map, no need to change settings, (Initial 100%, only on selected edge loop will be used)
    W drop-down, [new], Create "Weight 1" Weight Map,
    drop selection,
    select two edges on previous edge loop, Maps > Set Map Value, 0%.
    Then in Layout node like on 2nd screen-shot.
    Basically 1st weight map has to have 100% on edge loop, or 0%, all the rest,
    2nd weight map can have intermediate values.
    Last edited by Sensei; 01-24-2018 at 10:28 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    I don't know if you were able to get rid of the 'dark silhouette' lines that curve thru the back of the blue sphere.
    Set Edge Z Scale to 1.0.

    After adjusting it, incidence trick stopped being needed also..
    Last edited by Sensei; 01-24-2018 at 10:36 PM.
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  15. #30
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
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    Over on Blender forum I am participating in a thread about Line Rendering, (always, I know) A person there was trying to tell me that Freestyle works in Blender Cycles. My concerns are a bit more specific. I have an animation/illustration project in mind and Blender 2.8 is one of two 'target' software platform for making it work, however, please note?! I am asking for RealTime line rendering solutions, not Post Process, which is what Freestyle is currently, whether it is with Cycles or Blender Internal. Trying to get a particular "look" to the line qualities can be excruciating and irritating, tweak, render, reject, change one little parameter, render, check, rinse and repeat.... not very satisfying or artistic in nature. I am currently exploring Lightwave 2018.0.1 (latest version) and am submitting bug reports and recommendations to this team, with some elements being already corrected and potentially included in 2018.0.2?? What is so importantly different is that the lines are rendered on screen, in RealTime in the VPR window, so I open the Node Editor for a particular object, tweak, add, re-route, nodes, and watch it update with every change!!! Amazing difference. However, it currently does not have the same level of 'granularity' that is available in Blender Freestyle, with Sketchy, Smoothing, etc. I am lobbying Lightwave to try to incorporate some of the advantages of Blender Freestyle, just as I am lobbying Blender development community to come up with a solution for Line Rendering for the 2.8 series. Grease Pencil is doing wonders, but it is all hand drawn, then manipulated, marvelous, yes, but it should be in addition to a 3D line rendering solution so the two approaches can work hand in hand.
    Here is a very simple example, but note that, this updates on screen with every 'twitch' of the parameters and node setups so I can know what a final render is going to look like, with many thanks to Sensei and others for collaboration.
    What is doesn't have at the moment is the ability to set LineStyles, like Blender, and have multiple LineSets applied to the same edges and Multipled to get a complete line. It does not allow assignment of "Marked" lines, for specific Style treatment, but I have come up with a way to get it to work, along with a developer (Sensei) collaboration. Lightwave has great potential, and I am hoping some of the work being done in the Japanese studios gets imported.
    Click image for larger version. 

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