Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 56

Thread: NPR Line creation test!!! Challenge

  1. #1
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754

    NPR Line creation test!!! Challenge

    I am starting a new thread to initiate a challenge. In my other thread, I was bemoaning the absence of demo/videos of good variable line using NPR in Lightwave. Feeling overly dense, I went into the DEMO Scenes that come with 2018 and looked at their line work. All well and good, except they all just used a Turbulence effect on the Taper of the lines. This does generate a nice variable line, BUT . . . not one of them showed any effort to respond to light source, in the line rendering. The Cel Shading, responds just fine to the light source, but NADA, ZIP relationship of the lines to light source. Major disappointment!!! I checked out one of RH's videos to see if I could adapt the settings to the line, working with Light Info, Item Info, even tried a Null, nothing, Normalized, piped through the Dot Product, nothing seems to work. I can make this work in Blender just fine, but it is a Post Process currently and I love the way the Lightwave does it on screen, in Real Time, which is great for artistic tweaking. No Japanese animation would be considered without a light responsive line!!
    So, .. .. here is the challenge. I am attaching a simple scene, just a sphere, graded cel shaded, on a plane, with a portal light. I am including the Object file, with the Scene file but this can be easily created on the fly by anybody, so you don't have to download the file, but my Node setup is as shown in this image.
    I will be happy to have someone demonstrate the limits of my knowledge. Newtek employees and Beta testers are welcome, as is anyone else.
    Let the challenge begin!!
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sphere_layout.png 
Views:	324 
Size:	332.1 KB 
ID:	139580
    Attached Files Attached Files
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    468
    Use an incidence node. Light dir > incidence > taper that should work

  3. #3
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,993
    This is one way of doing it.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Layout_2018-01-19_09-56-22.png 
Views:	264 
Size:	265.0 KB 
ID:	139590

  4. #4
    Lightwave Pimp Skonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Yorkshire UK
    Posts
    1,447
    What is it you're trying to recreate by having the edges respond to light?

    Cel shading and line edges are generally designed to represent the effect of hand painted cels, so the inked edges would have no response to light in the real world anyway; the thickness being based on pressure more than anything else.

    So not sure why you would have expected the demo scenes to have edges that are modified by light direction.
    uh wha?

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    468
    Quote Originally Posted by Skonk View Post
    What is it you're trying to recreate by having the edges respond to light?

    Cel shading and line edges are generally designed to represent the effect of hand painted cels, so the inked edges would have no response to light in the real world anyway; the thickness being based on pressure more than anything else.

    So not sure why you would have expected the demo scenes to have edges that are modified by light direction.
    A typical cartooning technique is to have the outlines of a shape that are away from the light a little thicker than those toward the light. It is a subtle way to give a simple line drawing a little bit of substance and weight.

  6. #6
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    hypersuperduper, Thank you for responding, as I was beginning to think all those years of inking drawings in art class were a hallucination. ZTreem, thank you, I will try it out and share my results. I knew that with the right nodes, it should be possible but I had not gotten this result.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  7. #7
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    I am a fan of hand-drawn ink work. One of my favorites in the realm of graphic novels, is Jason Brubaker. I get a little 'sideways' at some of the ways he write his themes, but that's not the point. He does all of his drawings, hand inked, with a Pentel brush tip pen. HIs first book is "remind" and now he has been working on "Sithrah," both of which have beautiful layouts, line work and creative use of textures and color. Take a look, I am including a single page and a link to the 'remind' book, which you can read online, but having the hard copy is wonderful.
    Link to 'remind' online. I would love to be able to moimic this style, in animation, in Lightwave.
    http://www.remindblog.com/custom/remind-spread-4/
    Link to 'Sithrah' also on line at Webtoons http://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/s...t?title_no=524
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jason-Brubaker_2009-11-23-spread004.jpg 
Views:	234 
Size:	423.0 KB 
ID:	139598
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  8. #8
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    Here is a successful render, using the Node setup that ZTreem demonstrated. Thank you, now on to further explorations, trying to get thicker lines in Occluded (tight angled areas), and other tricks. I also added some turbulence to rough up the line quality.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	line-spheretest_v2.png 
Views:	157 
Size:	57.8 KB 
ID:	139609
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  9. #9
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    Use an incidence node. Light dir > incidence > taper that should work
    If you have an example that works, please share it here so we can all learn.
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  10. #10
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    3,993
    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    If you have an example that works, please share it here so we can all learn.
    It's the same thing I did, but without the old layer nodes. It looks like this.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Layout_2018-01-20_02-20-03.png 
Views:	152 
Size:	430.8 KB 
ID:	139618

  11. #11
    Engineer/Entrepreneur Sekhar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    2,123
    Quote Originally Posted by paulhart View Post
    I am a fan of hand-drawn ink work. One of my favorites in the realm of graphic novels, is Jason Brubaker. I get a little 'sideways' at some of the ways he write his themes, but that's not the point. He does all of his drawings, hand inked, with a Pentel brush tip pen. HIs first book is "remind" and now he has been working on "Sithrah," both of which have beautiful layouts, line work and creative use of textures and color. Take a look, I am including a single page and a link to the 'remind' book, which you can read online, but having the hard copy is wonderful.
    Link to 'remind' online. I would love to be able to moimic this style, in animation, in Lightwave.
    http://www.remindblog.com/custom/remind-spread-4/
    Link to 'Sithrah' also on line at Webtoons http://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/s...t?title_no=524
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jason-Brubaker_2009-11-23-spread004.jpg 
Views:	234 
Size:	423.0 KB 
ID:	139598
    Why not just use the "Shrink Edges With Distance" option to get the depth effect on lines, as below

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.PNG 
Views:	175 
Size:	137.1 KB 
ID:	139619?

  12. #12
    Shrink Edges With Distance is very limited compared to Distance Gradient in the node editor which is no longer available in 2018. Sigh...

  13. #13
    _
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    moravia
    Posts
    1,016
    I love Ztreem's method because it's so easy to make small variations along the line by just adding more keys to the gradient. My problem was the aliasing. Even with the variance, it did not look inked because even with crazy amounts of samples ( I think I tried up to 500), it still had a bit of stepping. That immediately killed the illusion. Fortunately, in NPR, having a filter radius greater than 1 doesn't look bad. With a filter radius of 1.32 and just 7 samples, I really like the line LW makes.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	edgeline.jpg 
Views:	116 
Size:	66.5 KB 
ID:	139625
    and with a slightly less inky color, it looks a lot like a cartoon line.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	edgeline2.jpg 
Views:	108 
Size:	63.1 KB 
ID:	139626
    I quite like these results; thanks for the thread!

  14. #14
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    and JCG, thank you for your contributions. I will investigate your findings, and report back with my own efforts, time allowing....
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

  15. #15
    Animated Fool paulhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    754
    Okay, back to weird results, and have no clue. I copied the first sphere, moved it over, and mangled it a little to get some edges. I then turned on 'Sharp Creases' and I ended up with some kind of weird transparency effect. I was only expecting the edges facing to have any of this effect. I will investigate, but it's not what I expected.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	line-spheretest_v3.png 
Views:	146 
Size:	92.3 KB 
ID:	139652
    An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind... Gandhi/MLKing
    Greater consciousness is worth the effort. Be aware.... so sayest the Animated Fool ~ HARTWORKS www.hartworks.net

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •