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Thread: A dream: an OUR very big renderfarm with Lightnet:Cloud

  1. #1

    A dream: an OUR very big renderfarm with Lightnet:Cloud

    Hi,

    I hope to can explain this idea with my bad english...

    There is a very good sw, Lightnet: Cloud, some months ago I used it and it works very well (http://www.joejustice.org/lightnet-cloud).
    The programmer, Joe Justice, is a very good man and when I had some problems he helped me... if you think that the software is free you can understand that all his time spent to help me was a very big present.

    I think.... why we don't build an our renderfarm? Need only a FTP and all us can join with our computers. Maybe NT can have the FTP and give this service to all LW users. We need only turn on lightnet when we go away from comp and it joins to render list.
    Have you ready a scene for render? ok, send it to ftp (with lightnet) and all our free comps will render it.... more we are more the render will be fast.... you can save weeks! In one night you can have your frames rendered, frames then usually need 15 days to be ready, for example...
    Of course need some rules (and programmers must put them inside the software), like a priority.... maybe who joins his comp for more than 5 hours per day is in CLASS A and his scenes are with high priority in render queue, who joins only 10 minutes per week is in CALSS Z and has a very low priority in render queue...
    The scenes that require, for example, 12 GB ram don't must run on comps with only 4 GB...
    The scenes that require some plugs must run only on comps that have these plugs (can't ask to people to buy plugins, but can ask to install free plugs, like DP, to join the "farm"...).
    The scenes that require LW11 must run only on comp that have Lw11...
    None can download from FTP (to stole) the scenes and the images of other people...
    and so on....

    I think that if NT builds this "toy" his users can have a really wonderful and incredible service... a superbig renderfarm for all Lw users.......

    A dream....

    I don't know if Lightnet:Cloud now give this possibility or need some very big features, but Joe wrote a great software and I think that he can do all to make this real.

    Ok, I hope you can understand my english and sorry for errors.
    Bye

  2. #2
    J.D.Lowe ShadowMystic's Avatar
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    Interesting idea. Kind of like [email protected] Distributed computing power at work.

  3. #3
    I'm a Registered User monovich's Avatar
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    who pays the power bills of all the people running constant renders on my computers? Me? Hmm...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by monovich View Post
    who pays the power bills of all the people running constant renders on my computers? Me? Hmm...
    Yeah, and when you are doing your renders on my computer who is paying for them?

    It's not like the system is asking you to volunteer your computing power and never take advantage of the network. And if you already have a farm maybe you don't need to join the network. Or maybe you do join but don't give access to your entire farm.

    As long as people look at it as a "me" proposition it goes nowhere.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by monovich View Post
    who pays the power bills of all the people running constant renders on my computers? Me? Hmm...
    if this is your problem you will not join to farm and you will not drive your render on other people's comps, you will haven't any priority, this is the advantage to have a "counter" of hours joined so the sw can assign the right class priority (it is only an idea, maybe can find a better one).
    Think that there is a lot, but really a lot of people that don't turn off the comp, never... and this is all power lost, of course only idle power, less than full render, but not so little.

    Think also about all the ps3 that joined to... i don't remember the name but there was a cloud computing program for a good project, all these people received nothing. Why did they made this? For the good of all.
    Why I want to join to a renderfarm program without receive "money"? Because the day that I will need it I will have a really fast render and it will be a really plus for my work and the energy that I will spend to run some night of other people's render will be less than the energy I will save for my render..... think for example: your render on your comp need 20 days... with this "renderfarm" and only 50 people joined how much days you will need? less than 1 night... only few hours and you can give your work to customer... how much work more than now can you make? how much tuning can you make to your scene before push F10? How much times in past you said: "damn! it is not perfect but there isn't time to work more, need make the render because it is very slow and need a lot of days...".

    Of course if you have your personal renderfarm in your office you no need all this, but how much people here have more than 1 or 2 comps?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dexter2999 View Post
    Yeah, and when you are doing your renders on my computer who is paying for them?

    It's not like the system is asking you to volunteer your computing power and never take advantage of the network. And if you already have a farm maybe you don't need to join the network. Or maybe you do join but don't give access to your entire farm.

    As long as people look at it as a "me" proposition it goes nowhere.
    yes, you said it more right than me, with less words and more effective.

  7. #7
    Banned OnlineRender's Avatar
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    why not just use garagefarm.net and save a wad of cash ...

    it's good stuff its a positive approach and LW related , so its all good in the hood , I reckon LightWiki could take some of that strain " download speed off our server tops out at 2.5 meg and thats with my net " upload speed is hmm pushing 1 meg ! "
    Last edited by OnlineRender; 12-27-2011 at 04:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Super Member JonW's Avatar
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    Just looking at my electricity bill alone:

    My farm, 6 computers, the whole system running is 2300 watts according to the UPS. In a 24 hour period 55.2 Kw at current rate of $0.23 plus $0.48 per day to read the meter. $13.18 of electricity & if I need to turn the air conditioning on, add up to $5.00 per day. About $18.00 a day.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JonW View Post
    Just looking at my electricity bill alone:

    My farm, 6 computers, the whole system running is 2300 watts according to the UPS. In a 24 hour period 55.2 Kw at current rate of $0.23 plus $0.48 per day to read the meter. $13.18 of electricity & if I need to turn the air conditioning on, add up to $5.00 per day. About $18.00 a day.
    None say you to give 6 comp to lightnet-farm (or how you want to call this), you can give only 1 during the lunch and dinner time... how much is it? 18$ for 6 comps x 24h.... so only 1 comp for 3 hours is 0.375$.... but with it you have access to other (maybe) 50, or 100... or... who can know now, comps.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OnlineRender View Post
    why not just use garagefarm.net and save a wad of cash ... "
    but garagefarm is a classic renderfarm, how I understand from their site.

    Lightnet:Cloud is the "inverse" of it: there isn't a renderfarm in one place, but all computers that join to cloud become a node, so one scene can rendered in hundreds of different places in the world... the first frame at new york, the second at pechino, the third at tokyo, the fourth ad springfield on the Homer's comp, the fifth in a village on a mountain in nepal...and so on... and all frames are saved on the "central" FTP.
    (of course all nodes have LW).

  11. #11
    Kts an excellent idea. I find the naysayers to be funny, because lots and lots of people already do this on facebook for the blender renderfarm. Just boot up facebook and run the app. People ask nothing in return. I run it all the time just to help out fellow artists.

    If lightnetCloud could be made to run in Facebook, then that would be really sweet and solve a whole host of problems.
    please power off before disconnecting connecting connectors

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JonW View Post
    Just looking at my electricity bill alone:

    My farm, 6 computers, the whole system running is 2300 watts according to the UPS. In a 24 hour period 55.2 Kw at current rate of $0.23 plus $0.48 per day to read the meter. $13.18 of electricity & if I need to turn the air conditioning on, add up to $5.00 per day. About $18.00 a day.
    Easy answer to that: Same as the blender facebook app.... Don't volunteer anything and keep as you are now.
    please power off before disconnecting connecting connectors

  13. #13
    Cloud computing is nothing new.

    It seems to be just a very smart and astute idea to utilize resources in an efficient way.

    Houdini has a cloud service app.

    http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?opti...k=view&id=1630

    TORONTO: November 19th, 2009 - Side Effects Software, an industry leader in 3D animation and visual effects software, is pleased to announce the public beta release of new artist-friendly HQueue cloud computing tools. Studios and individuals who are looking for an artist-friendly way to harness the processing power of Amazon’s EC2 compute cloud will now be able to launch renderings and simulations from right inside Houdini.

    “Studios and artists can for the first time expand their computing power quickly and securely without worrying about buying new computers or finding space for an ever-expanding farm,” says Kim Davidson, President and CEO, Side Effects Software. “In addition, students and artists using Houdini Apprentice HD can let HQueue work for them on the cloud while leaving their workstation free for day-to-day work.”
    Here is a link to the explanation of the service it runs on:

    http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/

    I think it is something worth investigating and researching.

    Now here among LightWave users, In theory, it sounds great. If I understand this correctly, I think it has some drawbacks that would have to be considered first.

    Mathematically speaking, it requires an exponential number of available computers at any given time to service the number of active users.

    Even if you consider the fact of down time on potential computers, I think the numbers would be staggering.

    I don't think you can realistically say that there are enough LightWave nodes available on computers around the world to make this add up mathematically to be an advantage to that many users at any given time and thus it reduces the income (or resource) potential for anyone offering the severs and management to make this possible.

    For each person using this service there has to be a number of potentially idle computers available at any given time to increase the speed of rendering.

    For instance if one user is to increase his speed by 10, there has to be 10 idle computers available. 10 users 100 computers and so on.

    Now if there are 100 computers/users on the cloud then potentially at any given time there need to be 1,000 users on the cloud to give these 100 users 10X power. However now you have also 1,000 users/computers on the cloud that want to 10 x their power making 100,000 users/computers needed to service them and so on.

    However this cloud idea is based on the fact that there is some random factors in usage/down time.

    So lets say if it is 50/50 then this cuts the exponent in half. But still it gets into staggering numbers.

    So the only place this thing can fall down is that it requires an individual entity to set it up and manage it. It takes time to advertise it and get people to join up and incentive to use it - which is increased render resources - an exponential number mathematically. So that the more people who join means the more people who have need and the need grows exponentially based on the members who join.

    This is why it works great for something like Blender and Facebook. There are probably a much much larger percentage of people with Blender installed who use it sparingly compared to the number of users who need it for serious tasks, cutting down the exponential member/need factor quite a bit.

    I think this is a good idea but it requires some research into the actual numbers first and see if it can work out mathematically which is the biggest thing in question compared to the time it would take to set up and manage.

    That is the way it seems to me in my simplistic realistic way of thinking. That is assuming I understand the way cloud computing works. And my understanding of it is that it works best on tasks that require mass gather ing of information or tasks that masses of people can give access to without surrendering their computers entirely for CPU time and for apps that they already have installed (such as virus protection) or apps they can install for free. This offsets the exponential factor enough that it works out mathematically on the average.

    LightWave is confined to a very specific group of users in a very specialized field.

    And the math here would be more of a factor in making it work than in other situations.

    And this is why you'd have more people quoting rates for energy to use computers and so on. A larger majority of LighWave users are professionals or at least serious users than of something like Blender. In Blender you have a lot more users who dabble or use it very sparingly.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 12-27-2011 at 11:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Super Member JonW's Avatar
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    Also some scenes can get very large 1GB or so & this needs to be sent to every node.
    Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

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  15. #15
    Actually if my understanding is correct, it would reside on the server and be fetched by the cloud app which is installed on the host computer.

    http://www.joejustice.org/books/ligh...r-render-cloud

    But there are other complications too.

    Not all LightWave installs are equal. Not everyone uses the same plugins has the same versions of LightWave available and so on. And most LightWavers rely heavily on 3P plugins.

    Then there are certain limitations with network rendering. For instance if memory serves me correctly, there are some procedural textures that render differently from CPU to CPU so there could be problems there.

    This is not just a simple solution of having people coming along a joining in the nextwork. It would take a lot of management on a machine by machine, scene by scene basis.

    You would have to attract people who were not only LightWave savy but computer savy and that will narrow down your user base right there. And those who are savy will have to have an incentive to deal with all of these technical issues - that would be render time. And so you have a larger percentage of people joining who are looking for the benefit and increasing the use of the service and thus rendering it basically redundant and useless on a purely mathematical basis.

    Not that this is a bad idea. But you can see why people set up these things as services and charge money to individual users. It makes much more sense from a technical standpoint to use a render farm that is set up for LigthtWave.

    If this is to work, I feel as if a lot of effort would have to go into working out the various technical pitfalls of managing something with a ton of variables.

    If that effort was made and the issues resolved to make it practical and attractive, then yes, good idea.

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