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Thread: Lightwave 10 or moto 501?

  1. #1
    Registered User Tony3d's Avatar
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    Lightwave 10 or moto 501?

    Hi all,
    I have downloaded Lightwave 10 demo, and Modo 501. I'm really liking Modo. Personally I'm over Newtek's apparent We Don't Care attitude. I have already gotten Modo's community input, and now I'd like Lightwaves. Over the 14 years of using Lightwave I personally feel that Newtek is on the wrong path, and Lightwave seems to be a patched mess in need of a complete rewrite. Modo is sleek, efficient, and very responsive. The only thing keeping me here is my 14 years of Lightwave knowledge. Before I make a final decision I would like your input. So if anyone has tried Modo I would like your comments.
    Last edited by Tony3d; 03-21-2011 at 11:23 PM.

  2. #2
    I use Lightwave and also own Modo. I have not yet upgraded to 501, still using 401.
    Well first I would just say that I don't see that Newtek has a "dont' care" attitude. I think just like Luxology, they are very passionate about their product. In terms of a rewrite, you do know that Lightwave is being rewritten right? That is what CORE is but it is going to take some time. In the end, Lightwave will eventually be a single application, no longer split up between modeler and Layout. In the meantime, they are making improvements to classic Lightwave.
    You also have to ask yourself what do you use these for. If you need a 3-D program that does character animation, particles, or dynamics, well, Modo will not have those for some time to come. A rigid body dynamics system is coming to Modo, but only as a plug-in so you will have to pay extra for that. They can't do cloth or softbody dynamics yet because the deformation system is not yet in place.
    Since you've been using Lightwave for some time, I would assume that you are familiar with at least basic surfacing in Lightwave. Have you seen how the Modo shader tree works yet? Some people like it, but most people seem put off by it.
    The grass is not always greener on the other side. Some things you will like better in Modo and others you will like in Lightwave. The modeling tools in Modo are a step up from a lot of the modeling tools in modeler. But personally, I prefer modeler + LWCAD. UV tools are better in Modo by far, but we have not yet seen how good the UV tools in CORE will be for the first version.
    I would recommend you buy the trial version of Modo. I think it's $25 if I recall and will allow you to use the program for a limited time to see if you like it.

  3. #3
    Registered User Tony3d's Avatar
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    I do have the trial, and yes the shader tree is a bit difficult, but seems to be very powerful. I really don't do character animation, although I would miss particles. I'm sure particles will be coming soon. I am mainly interested in the modeling tools, and rendering quality.

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    Talking i own both

    i own both Modo 401 and Lightwave 10 (just arrive today, yay!). Everything has it plus and minus, and you also have to look at the price point. Houdini is awesome - but look at the price! And then there's string that come with it. The more awesome an app, the more complex it will be.

    Anyway, I use modo to model, and lightwave to set up everything and animation for my personal project. That's it.

  5. #5
    Super Member Cohen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony3d View Post
    I do have the trial, and yes the shader tree is a bit difficult, but seems to be very powerful.
    I found it to be quite the opposite for the longest time. Quite simple to use, but definitely not "very powerful." And as scene complexity increased, so did your shader tree. Then it becomes a serious pain in the arse to use. Despite their efforts to making it easier to access individual shader layers in there, its still a pain in the *****.

    And as for shaders go, well, your restricted to just that one 'do-it all' shader they precanned together, essentially limitiing you to a generic look and feel to everything. You wont find differnt kinds of diffuse shaders to use to emaluate the subtle shading of cloth or the hard diffuse shading of rocks or stones as you can with lightwaves variety of diffuse shaders. Plus, they don't have the wide assortments of sss shaders that lightwave has, including one kick *** skin shader (hell, we got 2, scratch that, 3 (3rd party) skin shaders). (PS, there is not a single 3d package today that limits you to one generic shader, most of them come bundled with many, and allow you to roll your own if need be.)

    modo's modeling tools are nothing to tout about. Their precision modeling tools are very sub par compared to LW cad tools. (not sure if you do that kind of modeling). Their tool pipe is interesting. but' Im not sold on it being any more useful than having the falloffs integrated in the actual tools themselves. Fact is, it does offer more functionality, but what kind of extra functionality? To make things interesting, you could set it up to "air brush on" bevels to your models. But lets get real, no one will ever do that, nor find any use for that. So to boil it down for you, the tool pipe is good for one thing. And thats marketing lure to make you think you need it, when you actually don't.

    And as for sculpting and painting tools. It was a nice idea to combine those aspects into a 3d program, creating an all-in-one content creation package. But the reality is, if you own any dedicated 3d-paint/sculpting package, you will never ever use whats their in modo (unless you're a modo fanatic who has himself convinced he can do it better and faster in modo, no matter the odds (I know a few)). But the reailty is, most of the good sculpting & painting works you see in their gallery, is done outside of modo. I was pretty disappointed after trying out their new mutli-res sculpting. I was getting around 13 mil polys of sculpting in the viewport, and it came to a crawl. I opened up blender, used the same object, to the object to around 45 mil polys before it started to crawl (surprisingly, the app was still responsive, unlike...).

    One thing I have always liked is the vector displacement painting in modo, but you will find that it doesnt perform well with large brushes, and really, really sucks when you hit seams. The brush 'stroke' actually changes its size across the seams if your UV's arent the exact u to v size ratio as it corresponds to its size in 3d space. Its one of those "gotch ya's" after you buy it, leaving you feeling cheated almost. In fact, thats what I find about that whole sculpt & paint paradigm they got going on. Of course, I am a Zbrush stickler all the way, so I'm never impressed with any sculpting/paint tools that are out on the market today.. I believe they all should just give up. :P

    So thats some of the negative crap I feel you should know. As for the positive things:

    Great renderer. Fast and handles memory very well. Global Illumination solver is fast, easy to use. - enough said.

    polygonal modeling is quick, once you get accustomed to it. But its not that much faster than having a decked out lightwave modeler. However, it must be said that its not all much better. Generally yes, but for example, some basic modeling operations will require 5-9 clicks, espsecially if you need to change a tool around to work differently, where as in something like silo, that same operation will likely be around 3 clicks in total. This is just something that happens when you bloat simple tools with a bunch of options, when 99% of the time you just want it to perform its basic function. Basically, modeling in silo is like a constant state of pure fluid goodness, where as in modo, its a fluid with abruptions here and there.

    The fur/curve rendering is kewl.

    Also, render passes work with instances. **looks at Newtek **

    Lastly, I'd just like to end with this: You are kidding yourself if you think you are going to get extra functionality out if it if you already have lightwave. Of course, you could ommit that statement if you did not have a dedicated paint/sculpt package. But for everything else, the motion stands.
    Last edited by Cohen; 03-22-2011 at 03:00 AM.

  6. #6
    I tried modo 301 and 401. It was neat, but some gotchas sent me back to lightwave. Plus the free plugins more than makes up for it.

  7. #7
    I don't think its Fair to say that Newtek don't care.
    I think thats like saying the sweating, red-faced, Fat kid at the back of the race isn't making any effort on sports day. He is, its just harder for him than it is for the rest of the class.
    Whilst everyone else was out of their comfort zone excercising, (or starting from scratch developing modern software concepts)
    Fat Kid was in his comfort zone gorging on Chocolate ( Or tinkering with the already strong point in the software. In this case, rendering )

    Now, at the last moment, one day before sports day, he realises he has to do what he should have done a long time ago and start training ( Build CORE)

    Hence the red face, not only for him, but all who have decided to back him.

    However, we should be encouraging. After all. If he carries on the training and keeps off the chocolate, he might win the race one day.
    Yes, he's had a few bars of chocolate recently, but, we all need a treat now and again. And, no, we havent seen much evidence of training, but he assures us hes been planning a running route (in his bedroom, with the door shut) , so there is no need for alarm.

    Anyway. what's important is that he has friends.
    Last edited by pooby; 03-22-2011 at 03:55 AM.
    http://www.newtek.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=18493&dateline=130857  4707

  8. #8
    Registered User Tony3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pooby View Post
    I don't think its Fair to say that Newtek don't care.
    I think thats like saying the sweating, red-faced, Fat kid at the back of the race isn't making any effort on sports day. He is, its just harder for him than it is for the rest of the class.
    Whilst everyone else was out of their comfort zone excercising, (or starting from scratch developing modern software concepts)
    Fat Kid was in his comfort zone gorging on Chocolate ( Or tinkering with the already strong point in the software. In this case, rendering )

    Now, at the last moment, one day before sports day, he realises he has to do what he should have done a long time ago and start training ( Build CORE)

    Hence the red face, not only for him, but all who have decided to back him.

    However, we should be encouraging. After all. If he carries on the training and keeps off the chocolate, he might win the race one day.
    Yes, he's had a few bars of chocolate recently, but, we all need a treat now and again. And, no, we havent seen much evidence of training, but he assures us hes been planning a running route (in his bedroom, with the door shut) , so there is no need for alarm.

    Anyway. what's important is that he has friends.
    Very funny! I likey.

  9. #9
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    LOL, so true

    Quote Originally Posted by pooby View Post
    I don't think its Fair to say that Newtek don't care.
    I think thats like saying the sweating, red-faced, Fat kid at the back of the race isn't making any effort on sports day. He is, its just harder for him than it is for the rest of the class.
    Whilst everyone else was out of their comfort zone excercising, (or starting from scratch developing modern software concepts)
    Fat Kid was in his comfort zone gorging on Chocolate ( Or tinkering with the already strong point in the software. In this case, rendering )

    Now, at the last moment, one day before sports day, he realises he has to do what he should have done a long time ago and start training ( Build CORE)

    Hence the red face, not only for him, but all who have decided to back him.

    However, we should be encouraging. After all. If he carries on the training and keeps off the chocolate, he might win the race one day.
    Yes, he's had a few bars of chocolate recently, but, we all need a treat now and again. And, no, we havent seen much evidence of training, but he assures us hes been planning a running route (in his bedroom, with the door shut) , so there is no need for alarm.

    Anyway. what's important is that he has friends.

  10. #10
    World's Tallest Dwarf safetyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony3d View Post
    ...Lightwave seems to be a patched mess in need of a complete rewrite.
    I don't think anyone has mentioned that CORE is a complete re-write. Sure, it will take a few iterations for it to be a complete solution, but at least they appear to be granting your request.

  11. #11
    Registered User Tony3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverko View Post
    I haven't looked back since switching to modo for modeling and rendering. I find it to be a far better solution for product visualisation and other advertising related 3D tasks like concepting and illustration. The general workflow, renderer (speed/quality) and overall feature set just clicks for me. It's not the most advanced or mindblowing package out there, but it's a great little workhorse when your needs fall within the feature set.

    For other needs LW still packs a (cheap) punch, but that doesn't really help me. XSI looks like a far, far better choice for more complex tasks these days.

    Edit: Why not simply expand your toolset with modo if you like it and feel that it will suit your needs? It's not like you have to give up LightWave in the process. One of the great things about modo coming from LightWave is that in many ways it operates quite similarly to LightWave. So you can get up to speed quite fast.

    While I have pushed LightWave to the back in my workflow I still find it useful for certain rendering/animation features as well as LWCAD. I didn't get rid of it just because I found something that better suited the majority of my needs.
    This is exactly the type work I'll be using it for. I do very little in the way of animation, but will be using it mainly for photoreal rendering for ads, and visualization. My biggest gripe is the shader tree. I hate it. If not managed properly, it can become a nightmare. How do you deal with it? Also have you noticed that the models you import from Lightwave look very bright, and any procedural texture must be tweaked a lot. Baking the textures out of Lightwave is probably the way to go. What modeling tools stand out the most?

  12. #12
    Registered User Tony3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safetyman View Post
    I don't think anyone has mentioned that CORE is a complete re-write. Sure, it will take a few iterations for it to be a complete solution, but at least they appear to be granting your request.
    What bothers me the most is the new pricing structure. I heard that upgrades are going to jump to $695.00 after core hits. That's getting to high for me. Moto is $399.00, and will remain so supposedly for the foreseeable future. This is more inline to what I'm accustomed to paying. I remember when Lightwave was first ported to the Mac it was so riddled with bugs, it was totally useless for production work. You couldn't even get a reliable boolean operation put of it. If this rewrite is going to be anything like that I'm not interested. Just seems when things break in Lightwave you simplely loose that feature.
    Last edited by Tony3d; 03-22-2011 at 08:13 AM.

  13. #13
    Are we there yet ?
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    I own both, and I would say that if you already own LW-9.6, then opt for Modo.

    There's very little in LW-10 that isn't already in Modo, so LW-9.6 with Modo offers the best increase in features, especially if you are primarily into modelling.

    For me the telling thing is how much I use each program for any given project. I sometimes use LW, I always use Modo (even when used with LW or MAX).

  14. #14
    That good looking? chco2's Avatar
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    Funny,

    For still advertisement images, productshots and such Lightwave fits all my needs (better yet, my customers needs).
    I have tried Modo (Dan Ablan told me to give it a try sort of), but for me it did not offer more over lightwave.
    Also as for LW10... LW10's VPR is saving me a huge amount of time setting up correct lightning and texturing, plus the linear colorflow is excellent.

    cheers,
    Charly
    “It's amazing the way people cling to insults. Or what they think are insults.”

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    Modo has all of LWīs modeling tools, but more global parameters like adjustable workplane and falloffs.

    And Edge modeling in Modo is not a hack like in LW.

    LW layout, while more crude than Modo, is a complete solution for rendering and animating. Rigging, for now not available in Modo, is somewhere between reasonable and good in LW. (I know Pooby will disagree

    Rendering is equally good in both, IMO. Both now have interactive rendering in the work viewports, with Modoīs being slightly more elegant.

    Dynamics in LW suck, IMO. Modo doesnīt have any for now, but there seems to be a powerful plugin in the works.

    I use both LW and Modo.

    In Modo I use everything, in LW I havenīt touched Modeler for work in ages.

    Donīt have access to Core. From what Iīve seen in old previews it could actually beat the heck out of Modo once itīs finished, which I sometimes fear will never happen.

    So, there ya go.
    Last edited by Hominid 3D; 03-22-2011 at 10:05 AM.

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