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Thread: SE2: higher quality HD

  1. #1

    SE2: higher quality HD

    There is a well known limitation to SE's rendering engine that can introduce artifacts in HD projects. This is due to the standard definition DVE's held over from VT.

    While we are in the process of revamping the rendering engine, you can get an idea of what to expect in the future and sharper HD now.

    To do this you must be willing to give up DVEs in HD projects...the Transitions in the Effects folder will continue to work on all project sizes however. Any DVE's in existing projects will be shown as a fade.

    In preferences, in the File Rendering setion, change "Rendering of SD-only DVEs to non-SD resolutions to "Substitute crossfades (full quality)", then close preferences and exit SE2.

    When you reopen SE2, all outputs will be pixel exact, including onscreen preview, HD output cards and file rendering.
    John Perkins
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    "No, it's my natural color..."

  2. #2
    VT5 USER Rich Deustachio's Avatar
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    Come on John, in the two years NewTek took to develop SE2 they couldn't have converted the DVEs for high quality HD or created new ones? These are the kind of things that make editors buy other NLEs. Just shows me that you guys were spending much more time working on other projects.
    Dynamic Video Productions
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  3. #3
    I'll give you that one, we deserve it.

    In our defense, the new transitions were just barely ready for TriCaster XD300 launch. We have been working on the new technology steadily for quite some time.

    As you can see from this post, SE2 was well on it's way to removing the limitation but the new transitions were not finalized in time to make the rest of the necessary changes to SE even in a limited transitions only fashion.

    This is one of my biggest regrets, but it was simply unavoidable without adding significant delays to an already delayed release.

    All I can do is admit the problem and try to assure you that we are aware of it and are working towards that end.

    Thanks,
    John Perkins
    Software Engineer

    "No, it's my natural color..."

  4. #4
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    I wish it had been sooner too. I think it's worth mentioning, though, that this is an example where parallel development (first seen in TCXD) will ultimately benefit SE. It's often not that taking someone off a TC project and giving them an SE hat would actually accelerate SE dev. Instead, multiple apps draw on the same technology pool, although in this case the SE bucket needs to be retooled somewhat before it can do so (now that the water exists).
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Perkins View Post
    There is a well known limitation to SE's rendering engine that can introduce artifacts in HD projects. This is due to the standard definition DVE's held over from VT.

    While we are in the process of revamping the rendering engine, you can get an idea of what to expect in the future and sharper HD now.

    To do this you must be willing to give up DVEs in HD projects...the Transitions in the Effects folder will continue to work on all project sizes however. Any DVE's in existing projects will be shown as a fade.

    In preferences, in the File Rendering setion, change "Rendering of SD-only DVEs to non-SD resolutions to "Substitute crossfades (full quality)", then close preferences and exit SE2.

    When you reopen SE2, all outputs will be pixel exact, including onscreen preview, HD output cards and file rendering.
    So John, just to make sure I understand, if I don't do this and use DVEs with HD content, will I have lower quality just in locations where I use DVEs or does it decrease throughout the entire project?

  6. #6
    VT5 USER Rich Deustachio's Avatar
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    Now that SE is a standalone NLE, NewTek needs to revamp the whole DVE system. After all it is no longer tied to the real time needs of the VT. Wasn;t that the reason to break it free from VT in the first place? If you depend on development of Tricaster to feed SE then here we go again being tied to real time which limits the abilities of the NLE.
    Dynamic Video Productions
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Deustachio View Post
    Now that SE is a standalone NLE, NewTek needs to revamp the whole DVE system. After all it is no longer tied to the real time needs of the VT. Wasn;t that the reason to break it free from VT in the first place? If you depend on development of Tricaster to feed SE then here we go again being tied to real time which limits the abilities of the NLE.
    Assuming I'm understanding you correctly, I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Ditching the common DVE format/engine would break interoperability, which I personally wouldn't find acceptable. If I were to have an XD300, for example, I would want my HD DVEs from there to work in post as well, and I would want it to work in real-time whenever possible just like in VT/TC. I'd certainly like upgrades such as allowing both video layers to be transformed during a DVE along with HD support, but I really don't want to lose format backwards compatibility/interoperability with VT and TC, nor do I want to lose real-time support. From what John has said we're at least getting the new HD-capable engine in the future when work from the XD300 gets moved over, which is a good thing. It seems to me being able to create one set of DVEs and use them in both live and post is potentially a great selling point for using SE in post.

  8. #8
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Deustachio View Post
    Now that SE is a standalone NLE, NewTek needs to revamp the whole DVE system.
    Everyone agrees with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Deustachio View Post
    After all it is no longer tied to the real time needs of the VT. Wasn't that the reason to break it free from VT in the first place?
    No, not really. Eugene and I had this discussion last year, and he eventually agreed that the standalone version came about primarily in response to popular demand for a 'laptop' version untied from VT. It really had nothing to do with completely revamping the (very inherent) realtime workflow, Rich.

    This is not to comment on the desirability of providing some mechanism that allows certain things (such as effects) to exist outside of the realtime paradigm, something that has been raised before ... just remarking on the one point above.
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  9. #9
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KHS-TV View Post
    .... but I really don't want to lose format backwards compatibility/interoperability with VT and TC, nor do I want to lose real-time support.
    Sure, good point. Maybe 'augmenting' would be a better word than replacing. A completely new, and preferably resolution independent transition solution is needed, and it should be cross compatible with our other products. This is not to say that backwards-compatibility should be dumped.
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  10. #10
    I didn't intend to stir up an already open can of worms, I just wanted to give those who wanted the capability of avoiding legacy constraints the ability to do so now rather than later.

    There is nothing to prevent SE from playing non-realtime effects that the TC and VT can't, but there is a basic need for resolution independent transitions on both platforms and the TCXD technology is a great fit that has the benefit of being realtime.

    TCXD was written from the ground up around them as they were being written and there was no legacy to adhere to.

    SE didn't have that luxury, it has an existing (very large) rendering engine, so it will take a little more time to integrate them properly.
    John Perkins
    Software Engineer

    "No, it's my natural color..."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KHS-TV View Post
    Ditching the common DVE format/engine would break interoperability, which I personally wouldn't find acceptable.
    We're not intending to ditch them, but we need more capabilities that the old format simply can't support.

    I can see a point in the future where SE disks won't include the old style DVE content, but if you need the old DVE's for existing projects or VT/TC compatibility you already have them with those products or older SE releases.
    John Perkins
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    "No, it's my natural color..."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Perkins View Post
    We're not intending to ditch them, but we need more capabilities that the old format simply can't support.

    I can see a point in the future where SE disks won't include the old style DVE content, but if you need the old DVE's for existing projects or VT/TC compatibility you already have them with those products or older SE releases.
    I suppose I didn't word what I meant properly. I was just saying there ought to be a common DVE engine, whether it's the old or new one since Rich seemed to be suggesting going in a different direction from the live production products in SpeedEDIT, possibly even losing true real-time support. Even if you move to a completely new format and absolutely have to stop supporting the old DVEs completely someday, what I really meant was that new format should then be available in live production as well and continue to work in real-time, not just be stuck in SpeedEDIT. It seems you're already doing that with XD300, with the bonus of supporting the old format to support old projects and VT, so I was just vocalizing my support for what seems to be your current path.

    EDIT: I'd almost forgotten again why I posted here in the first place. I'm still wondering - if I don't follow this tip and use current-generation DVEs with HD content, will I have lower quality just in locations where I use DVEs or does it decrease throughout the entire project?
    Last edited by Kevin Brice; 02-01-2010 at 11:35 AM.

  13. #13
    It's all the project or or none. The effect can be pretty jarring otherwise.

    SE is smart enough to check for DVE's in HD projects prior to rendering and will warn you if it finds them. You can choose then what to do with the render.

    If you enable this preference, SE2 will do the same for the previews as well which is very handy.

    For SD projects there is no problem, it renders DVE's perfectly.
    John Perkins
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    "No, it's my natural color..."

  14. #14
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    I thought this was the case when SE 2 did not create a DVE folder to use. Now I did not know about the warning feature added so I just tested it and sure enough, it warns about the resolution issue and allows me to render with fades. The only think I can see a user doing is checking off "Do not show this again" check box and then forgetting about it and then later on complaining about the quality.

    I am glad a new DVE engine is coming out with the ability to do overlay as seen in XD for starters, right? I hope it goes further and adds dual video plane moving as well.
    After that, I'd hope for a new DVE creator plugin that renders with decent render times and not the extremely long render times it does now.

    Just to speak more on DVE's in SE, it has its uses for sure but a lot of working in post allows the use of SE's keyframe animation features bundled with presets to achieve a lot video effects. This includes multi-plane video changes via animation. Of course it lacks "True 3D" manipulation of the video plane that a DVE can do in realtime. So again, a DVE has its uses for sure based on projects needs or ones usual work flow.

    I want to also add I love that we now have group control tree functions and this helps in me creating a multi-layer video effect. My problem is SE 2 lacks a group preset ability in tool shed. If I design a clap board style video effect by taking one clip and making say three copies of it, and using the crop tool, position and rotation on each layer with overlay enabled, I could have the layers animate to come on screen and fall in place as three separate pieces of the original (crop tool) to form the full image. I'd even add influence to my keyframes to give it a bounce look as they fall on each other. Now if I make this into a group in SE 2, I can further manipulate its animation but that is not what I want. I want to be able to select this group and create a group preset so that later, all I need do is select three layers of the same video and use the group preset. The group preset would apply each layers preset and then make it a group. In the past I requested this by calling it batch preset or macro preset.

    Anyway sorry if this goes off topic but since we are talking DVE's in SE 2, I thought I'd add this in
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  15. #15
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    I understand what you're after, José. Just to mention it in passing, though, you likely realize you can kind of get to this point even now by storing sub-project instances as presets, then using Inherit to drop in replacement clips. Different workflow, I realize, but similar outcome.
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