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Thread: Animated Cache Tips? Finding that 'sweet spot'

  1. #46
    Intuition your technique is fantastic! Yields a better result than my previous tests in less than half the time! (3m18s)

    I was trying to get the Adaptive Sampling system to do a similar thing, layer noisy GI on top of noisy GI to get a smooth solution. But this does it so much better its not even funny. (If fact its sad, all that time I've wasted trying other techniques.)

    See below for an image from Lightwave with Intuitions Technique, and just for fun I did an Fprime render for the same 3m18s. There's not even a comparison, Fprime still has way too much grain.
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  2. #47
    LightJustice Panikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Brunson View Post
    See below for an image from Lightwave with Intuitions Technique, and just for fun I did an Fprime render for the same 3m18s. There's not even a comparison, Fprime still has way too much grain.
    Thats very natural.
    LW blends several "clean" or inacurate pictures to get a steady result.
    FPrime composes several noisy but accurate pictures to get a steady result.

    If we try both ways at an extreme test, FPrime will be more reliable, believe me.

  3. #48
    I would be interested to see a case where fprime accuracy beats out this technique. For me personally even before this technique I used fprime as previewer only and rendered my finals with Lightwave because I've always been able to get smoother results quicker.

    Fprime renders fast initially but then takes for ever to kill the grain and get a smooth result in my experience.

    But I would love to be proven wrong as I'd love to see my investment into the plugin get some more mileage.

  4. #49
    LightJustice Panikos's Avatar
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    There are no secrets in FPrime. Everything is written in the online manual, how to kill noise.

    FPrime is more reliable as I wrote before, because its samples are not random but satisfy a specific order.

    Lets take the roulette for example.
    LW put bets in many places
    FPrime put bets in all places one at a time.
    Both WIN!!!

    However FPrime does not miss a chance.

    If you understand this, you know why FPrime is more reliable cause it accounts everything during its calculations.

  5. #50
    The Real Homestar. Intuition's Avatar
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    Panikos is right about f-prime.

    There is a bell curve of scene complexity where this technique will fall off and F-Prime will pull ahead.

    For most stuff this will work really well but there are some levels of complexity where LW will just slow down, no matter the method used, and F-Prime or Kray will be much much better but, I figured that based on the pictures in the gallery that this technique can be plenty useful for most users.

    I mean, once you start to slow down with 1.0 minimum pixel spacing you can get some more leverage with 2.0-4.0 minimum pixel spacing to save some time again. Not as accurate buts till saves time on more complex scenes and can be cleaned up with passes. None the less. Kray or F-Prime can be better at such complex scenes like greeble masterpieces and such.
    Last edited by Intuition; 06-23-2009 at 01:24 AM.
    -----------------
    KC

  6. #51
    LightJustice Panikos's Avatar
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    Megalodon
    I am glad that you are happy.
    I dont get commision out of anybody's sales.
    You are free to interpret things as you like

  7. #52
    The motion blur method works ok, but if you compare it to a render with higher settings (I usually end up with about 96) you'll see a definite difference. Also, it can take longer if your scene doesn't need all the passes for good motion blur. I rendered this scene 4 times faster with rays at 96 and good motion blur, at 8 passes - but if things were moving faster (like any vehicle going past a static camera) you'd see steps in the motion blur. So it seems like you should determine how many passes will be needed for a given shot/scene, then set the gi samples accordingly.
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  8. #53
    The Real Homestar. Intuition's Avatar
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    Yeah there are certain cases where you have to balance the MB passes vs the GI samples. In some scenes lower GI and AA will get smoothed out by dither passes much faster then setting AA to like 5-7 and GI 48-96+ primary samples.

    Its not an end all solution for all scenes but I've seen it make great frame times over and over that were just much better then high samples with prmblur passes.

    In the end it shows that there is plenty of optimization room left in LW's native engine. It makes me feel that PRmblur could be setup to work the same way if could sample GI over passes like dithered does.

    Some fancy coding ideas and it could be nice.
    -----------------
    KC

  9. #54
    The Real Homestar. Intuition's Avatar
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    Yeah there are certain cases where you have to balance the MB passes vs the GI samples. In some scenes lower GI and AA will get smoothed out by dither passes much faster then setting AA to like 5-7 and GI 48-96+ primary samples.

    Its not an end all solution for all scenes but I've seen it make great frame times over and over that were just much better then high samples with prmblur passes.

    In the end it shows that there is plenty of optimization room left in LW's native engine. It makes me feel that PRmblur could be setup to work the same way if could sample GI over passes like dithered does.

    Some fancy coding ideas and it could be nice.

    Now days I render most stuff in Vray anyways, which just kills anything I throw at it, but this trick helps with LW centric renders when I use LW.
    -----------------
    KC

  10. #55
    Yea that's the tricky part, you'd have to judge where the fastest motion is and, probably starting with high settings, lower it until you see steps, then raise it back up a little. You do risk missing something unexpected, which is why at places like dd you tend to use many dozens of passes regardless, so Intuitions method works right of the bat.
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  11. #56
    areté adk's Avatar
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    I've just been playing around with the test scene and techniques that were posted & wanted to say cheers a bunch to you all for a wealth of information on this elusive topic

    Maybe I'm doing something wrong / or right ... or misunderstanding something quite crucial but I get way faster and smoother results than those posted by Intuition & toby ... and I'm using the animated cache.
    Quality is ... well you be the judge.

    Bear in mind these were done on an old battleaxe I have here at work so I had to scale the render down to 50% to get reasonable time frames. Times given are for the whole sequence to render.

    ...also I turned on raytrace reflections on toby's scene to match the others.

    Test 01: 443 mins - Intuition
    Test 02: 130 mins - toby
    Test 03: 75 mins - me
    Test 04: 32 mins - me

    On both 01 & 02 there's some slight but noticeable flickering, 03 & 04 seem to be much better. With 03 & 04 I was trying to see if I could get better contact shadows & overall results.



    adk.
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  12. #57
    Adk, would you mind sharing your versions of the scene. I'd like to give it a try and compare.

  13. #58
    Super Member geo_n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adk View Post
    I've just been playing around with the test scene and techniques that were posted & wanted to say cheers a bunch to you all for a wealth of information on this elusive topic

    Maybe I'm doing something wrong / or right ... or misunderstanding something quite crucial but I get way faster and smoother results than those posted by Intuition & toby ... and I'm using the animated cache.
    Quality is ... well you be the judge.

    Bear in mind these were done on an old battleaxe I have here at work so I had to scale the render down to 50% to get reasonable time frames. Times given are for the whole sequence to render.

    ...also I turned on raytrace reflections on toby's scene to match the others.

    Test 01: 443 mins - Intuition
    Test 02: 130 mins - toby
    Test 03: 75 mins - me
    Test 04: 32 mins - me

    On both 01 & 02 there's some slight but noticeable flickering, 03 & 04 seem to be much better. With 03 & 04 I was trying to see if I could get better contact shadows & overall results.



    adk.
    test 01 has solid gi but with some noise. test 02 has slightly warping wall at the end but less noise. test 03 and test 04 has warping wall ang blinking colors. good tests.

  14. #59
    areté adk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    adk, how will your setup work for a figure where its mesh deforms?
    Not too well obviously Megalodon (I did a quick test so check the .mov attached below - tho that can probably be improved upon plus you have meshes intersecting here which also doesn't help I'm sure ). I'm afraid I was taking Matt's original post into account re. robot arm & render speed and this seems pretty quick and smooth in this case.

    As always it seems to be "horses for courses" & nothing works perfect for all occasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Brunson View Post
    Adk, would you mind sharing your versions of the scene. I'd like to give it a try and compare.
    I'll post 'em all up in a tick. Still at work and have few things to finish up.
    Nothing revolutionary I'm afraid ... simply cached interpolated MC.

    adk
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  15. #60
    LightJustice Panikos's Avatar
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    Immediately after the LW9.6 release, my attention was focused on latest GI.
    I made a Cornell Box like together with a character that was displaced with MDD.
    I tweaked the GI settings for best results and rendered using Animated cache.
    As long as the rendering wasnt interrupted the results were excellent.
    When I stopped the computer and continue later, there was a sharp difference in the GI solution. This happened on the same computer.
    If I had this test made on a Network, I guess all rendered frames would vary.

    So, with sorrow I concluded that current LW GI, is not mature enough for animated displacements.

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