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Thread: Will there be a muscle system in future LW versions

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    Will there be a muscle system in future LW versions

    Will there be a muscle system in future LW versions?

    Everyone has seen "The hulk" movie, animated in Maya using a muscle system. As Lightwave users we also want to do that, right?

    Is that planned for future releases?

  2. #2
    Super Member SplineGod's Avatar
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    I would guess that its unlikely to see anything like that from Newtek in the near future. More likely it will come from 3rd parties.

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    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod View Post
    I would guess that its unlikely to see anything like that from Newtek in the near future. More likely it will come from 3rd parties.
    That's what's scary. Just like with FPrime and LW Cad, someone makes something useful and then NT just don't even worry about making it themselves.
    By the time you get your SyFlex, Fprime, Real Flow, Messiah, whatever someone invents for better particles and even muscles, you *might as well* just buy Maya...

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    Newtek is a small company. They don't have the developing resources that Autodesk has and thus they have to concentrate on things which are most important. But with Core they are giving us a solution to this problem: totally open SDK which allows you to do anything they could do. So it doesn't have to be Newtek which implements the muscle system to Lightwave, it can be done by anyone else and just as well (or even better). Sure it'll cost you some extra to get the muscle system as a plugin, but most people don't need it anyway. So these people who need it will buy it and use it to do commercial work which will pay for the plugin's price. I bet it'll still be cheaper than full seat of Maya this way anyway.

    This doesn't mean that I don't want to get a muscle system in Core natively. It just means that I'm not overly disappointed if it doesn't have it.
    Niklas Collin - Finnish Lightwaver

  5. #5
    Super Member KillMe's Avatar
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    what i find interesting is that i heard that autodesk has made life abit difficult on the 3rd party developers and now with lightwave being a modern core with full open sdk and a large existing user base i would expect alot of 3rd parties to start developing for lw

    so might get all sorts of cool new plugins ( probally with the horendous prices though that max users have had to deal with for an age ) including a full features syflex, all those cool fire effects plugs that you got for max etc etc

    hopes and expectations are high now aslong as newtek delivers what we all hope core will be

  6. #6
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMI View Post
    That's what's scary. Just like with FPrime and LW Cad, someone makes something useful and then NT just don't even worry about making it themselves.
    By the time you get your SyFlex, Fprime, Real Flow, Messiah, whatever someone invents for better particles and even muscles, you *might as well* just buy Maya...
    Uhm... not really...

    Pretty much every big studio have developed their own tools for particles, fluids and fur. Few of them use off the shelf tools, and if they do, it's often in combination with inhouse developements. CORE will alow similar, if not even better, integration by third party/inhouse developements.

    As SplineGod says, NewTek should focus on tools that are used 90% of the time, ALL the time (ie. tools that if not existing renders the software totaly useless). I would say that dynamics (particles, cloth and hardbody) are used enough on everyday projects to go into the category of "standard". MuscleSims are not. We have yet to use any muscle simulations for what we do at Massive Cinematics, and when we need to, we can easily use lattice deformers and clusters (standard components in Maya) to satisfy our needs. If I'm not misstaken, CORE will offer such components that makes it easier to build your own tools using standard components within the package.

    Of course, I would LOVE if NewTek have the time to make such developements, but at any rate, CORE will open up a whole new market for third party developers, since the possibilities are more or less...endless (good, both for CORE as a package, but also for endusers and developers).
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    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    Uhm... not really...

    Pretty much every big studio have developed their own tools for particles, fluids and fur. Few of them use off the shelf tools, and if they do, it's often in combination with inhouse developements. CORE will alow similar, if not even better, integration by third party/inhouse developements.
    Yeah, you're right, I know. I'm just looking at it from my own small-time perspective, and the fact I couldn't hard code even a six-faceted box primitive if my life depended on it.

  8. #8
    Super Member Ivan D. Young's Avatar
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    Maya's muscle system was a 3rd party plugin that they bought and incorporated. it use to be the Comet Muscle plugin, a programmer named Michael Comet made it he was originally from DNA productions, I think. A Maya/Lw house at one time.
    Woo Woo, back on the Turnip Truck!!

  9. #9
    Every time I hear about plugin developers porting their code to other programs it's usually because they perceive a large user base that is willing to pay. So, just keep that in mind with all this plugin dreaming.

    [Tangent] Recently Autodesk ported a few of it's apps to the Mac. I have a feeling that this was due to watching the trend of Apple gathering more and more market share every year (still relatively small) and growing where other computer companies seem to be failing. To Autodesk, I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not they think Apple's architecture is better. I also have a feeling that more Mac users pay rather then pirate software. I'm not saying that piracy isn't an issue on the Mac, just that I 'think' there aren't as many resources to even find cracked Mac software in the first place like there is for PC's. [/Tangent]

    I'm just saying that I think all of this affects the decisions of Plugin developers too. If you want more/better plugins on the new LWCore, better make sure there are a lot of people using it and buying lots of plugins.

    PS. Please don't respond to any Mac vs PC issues that I my have inflamed in you (you can PM me all you want though). These are only my opinions and I'm entitled to them. Right?

  10. #10
    Super Member Ivan D. Young's Avatar
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    you can get pretty close to a muscle system by jsut having a good spline rig. Where splines are used to act like muscles, if you look for rigging demo reels you will find lots of examples of this very thing. Muscle systems are not necessarily the only or maybe the best way to simulate this sort of reaction. It jsut helps if you are not that well versed on anatomy and the interaction of skin on muscle. But you can figure it out.
    Woo Woo, back on the Turnip Truck!!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by IMI View Post
    That's what's scary. Just like with FPrime and LW Cad, someone makes something useful and then NT just don't even worry about making it themselves.
    By the time you get your SyFlex, Fprime, Real Flow, Messiah, whatever someone invents for better particles and even muscles, you *might as well* just buy Maya...
    belt n braces...that's why i'm learning with maya ple and the 3dbuzz training dvd set [85hours long!] as well as using/owning lightwave, 3dsmax and zbrush
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  12. #12
    Javis Jones: Night Crew geothefaust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan D. Young View Post
    you can get pretty close to a muscle system by jsut having a good spline rig. Where splines are used to act like muscles, if you look for rigging demo reels you will find lots of examples of this very thing. Muscle systems are not necessarily the only or maybe the best way to simulate this sort of reaction. It jsut helps if you are not that well versed on anatomy and the interaction of skin on muscle. But you can figure it out.
    Right, exactly. With a better constraint system and the ability to use splines ala XSI, we don't need a muscle system. In fact I'd prefer to use splines/constraints with bones/nulls.

  13. #13
    Lead Character Artist kfinla's Avatar
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    As much as I would like a native muscle system I agree with Larry, it would most likely come from a 3rd party. My only hope is that some things, like Fprime which I would guess a very high percentage of the LW user base has is either acquired or a comparable native system is made by NT. There are lots of holes that plugins fill in LW9. I hope LW core isn't another hub for a bunch of plugins which enable it do be productive. The downside is needing someone at NT to maintain that system.. but I also am just not a fan of critical systems being 3rd party.

  14. #14
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Muscles in LW for all users is cheaper per license than a few plugins for those who can afford it.

    Just start with a simple implementation of muscles. Improve in the next releases.
    Look at the way bones were implemented. Nobody is expecting a perfect solution in the first release.

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