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Thread: Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2009

  1. #1
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2009

    Well, it's that time of year again. Time for my annual request for features in a theoretical SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB. If the title of this thread looks familiar, that's because it is. The title comes from my "Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2008" thread started just about exactly a year ago.

    Surprisingly, there was no SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2008 or at all last year. And without that, only ONE of the requests in this thread was addressed by Newtek at all. That one being true QuickTime support in the current SpeedEDIT. Though frankly, as is pointed out in last year's thread, was that really a feature request or merely the proper completion of the QuickTime support that was claimed in SpeedEDIT at the time anyway.

    Ah well, that was then and this is now. So now I will start my list, and feel free to compare it to my list from last year:

    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78404

    1) XDCAM HD MXF and XDCAM SD MXF support. I have to put this one first for me, since I have now moved to XDCAM HD and XDCAM SD, and I can't use SpeedEDIT with these formats.

    Let's take a look at a poll I conducted this time last year for this specific feature. My scientific poll CLEARLY shows that 33% of the respondants need XDCAM HD and XDCAM SD support. SpeedEDIT currently has NEITHER.

    Here's the thread of the poll to prove it:

    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78362

    2) Super Subprojects. Sub projects that have all the capabilities and adjustment controls as clips and show a mixed down audio waveform of what is inside of them.

    3) Grouping of clips. Please don't confuse this with locking of clips, that's a different feature.

    4) Filters that can be attached to clips.

    5) Interpolated slow motion. Realize, this is needed not only for high quality slow motion, but also when changing frame rates.

    6) Time code window dub for CLIP TIME CODE.

    7) Improved capture module. Bigger, correct aspect ratio, WITH audio, time lapse, timed and still capture abilities.

    8) Improved playback control response. VERY slow currently, try hitting "L" a few times when playing back and note the lag.

    9) Masks. Allow filters and effects to work on REGIONS, like Bob's SoftFX can do.

    10) Scrub bar selection improvement. Only grab the bar at the top??? That's SILLY. You should be able to grab it anywhere you can see it, and you should see it OVER all your clips, not hidden by them.

    11) DVE improvements. Current DVEs do NOT work in true HD resolution. Current DVEs also do not support the alpha channel.

    12) Finish VST support. There is no way to save custom presets into the VSTs like EVERY other VST host supports.

    13) Travelling Mattes. For the new Digital Juice Swipes and other functions.

    14) Organization ability for the ToolShed. We really need to be able to sort and have folders and import/export these settings.

    15) Programmable shortcut keys for the ToolShed. (Actually programmable shortcuts for EVERYTHING in SpeedEDIT would be best.)

    16) Easy scripting. One of the most powerful things I've found in Vegas Pro 8 is the ability to use normal Javascript or C# to create powerful automated functions/macros. I thought ToasterScript would offer this, but I haven't seen anything like this in SpeedEDIT.

    If you looked at last year's thread, yes, you guessed it, all 16 of my requests are exactly the same a year later.

    Let's take a look at another thread started a couple months after mine last year that expands on this further. It's also interesting seeing the contrasting predictions we have in it, from the very optimistic, such as Ted, predicting not only would we see SpeedEDIT 2.0 "shown" at NAB 2008, but that it would actually be shipping just a month or more later, to, well, my point of view that it would be "a lot" later, which proved sadly way more accurate.

    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81012

    This thread is also interesting in that John Perkins agreed with all the feature requests. And Ted jokingly suggested this could put John out of work agreeing with us. Well... Do you see John Perkins taking part in the forums in the last so many months? Nope. No, Newtek didn't fire him, but he changed jobs, so he's no longer available to be the advocate for the users in engineering that he once was. That's a real shame, and a real problem for the users getting feature requests done in the future, IMHO.

    OK, but before Steve can again pipe in that Newtek has added many features over the years, which I agree they did, I simply have to ask: "What has Newtek done for SpeedEDIT users lately?" That's really what matters. History and goodwill only last so long, when the users aren't getting the features they need to do their work.

    Now then, for those, since I'm sure there must be some of you out there, thinking, "well, those feature requests have only been out there a year", let me bring you to another thread, started by me in July of 2007.

    http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71461

    All I asked for in that thread were three things:

    1) TMPGEnc plug-in support.
    2) Real-time Interpolated slow motion.
    3) Subprojects that fully act as clips.

    And yes, we did get TMPGEnc support eventually, thank goodness, since my tests showed issues with SpeedEDIT's native encoder. (Nope, I'm still not asking for that to be fixed, since I think that may be more difficult than all the features requested above, anyway, that's a bug, and as long as TMPGEnc support is there, I'm fine with that. Besides, some users don't even see the problem, so if it's good enough for them, who am I to judge for them, I'm not, I just know the level of quality I need.)

    Well, now as always, I invite the rest of you to comment on any of these requests and add to them what you need.

    As for will Newtek have ANYTHING for SpeedEDIT at NAB 2009? Your guess is probably as good as mine.

    BTW, some of you may wonder why I even care. For the last year I totally stopped using SpeedEDIT since it can't support the XDCAM SD and XDCAM HD I work in. I don't even have it installed currently.

    I care because I was an exclusively Newtek editor for 15 years. That's a long time, and I've always given Newtek credit for giving me the tools to start my business. These kind of core users, like many others and myself, should be important to Newtek. I can assure you many of us saved Newtek from having to answer a lot of tech support calls with our answers here, on other forums, and on mailing lists. But over the years, most of these power users have moved on. I could move on, but I like helping out with the still useful knowledge I have on my legacy Newtek products.

    More importantly, if Newtek implemented these feature requests, or at least the show stopper ones that I need, I would certainly give SpeedEDIT another shot at being my NLE. Of course, the longer I am away from it, the less desire I have to go back to it, but as of right now, I'd still give it a shot.

    Power users are passionate users. Passionate users of a product are important, without them, an ingenious product becomes a mere commodity.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  2. #2
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
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    Add locking of clips as well as tracks to your list and I'd fully agree.

    Bonus points for an SDK that allows for third party support of (other) video boards.

    Cheers,
    Mike

  3. #3
    I love you, Eugene: such a dreamer!

    I will take ten of those, please: I'm looking for an editor for use at school.

    I will read the list another day. I'm just assured you'd have something that would make for the dream editor based on the toolset we know today. Amazing thought...

    Hahaha, on the "I have a Dream" day!
    Robert Wilson
    i-7-4770k @3.5ghz, Titan, GTX 1660 Ti, et al

  4. #4
    VT5 USER Rich Deustachio's Avatar
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    I agree with everything on Eugene's list, although I might change the order of requests a little.

    One note, I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!
    Dynamic Video Productions
    Mount Laurel NJ

  5. #5
    Paintball Video Geek billmi's Avatar
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    For me, #2 tops the list - to the point that I don't care about grouping, or applying filters to individual clips if we can get full-featured sub-projects.

    #13, I also consider a "must-have" feature - and it could take care of #9 if it worked with effects, or at least with super-subprojects.

    And my additions:

    Native AVCHD support - since I've got clients sending my AVCHD footage.

    Adjustable edge blur on overlays (edge of the key, not edge of the frame.)

    To #7 larger, correct aspect ratio is relatively easy - that's literally a matter of building a new skin, which I've already done - I'd add to that live vectorscope, waveform monitor and histogram. They don't even need to be live during capture, but if I could use them while setting up a shot that I'm recording straight to hard drive, that would be nice.

    That said - I consider this a wish list for the future of SE, not something I in any way expect to see at NAB 09, I would be very, very surprised by any editing advancements coming before HD switching.
    Toasting with NewTek since 1991 - Corinthian Media Services
    Riding Quiet on an Electric Ninja.

  6. #6
    Registered User Dufusyte's Avatar
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    Post

    I like to wax philosophical in these threads.

    SpeedEdit positions itself as a Speedy Editor, so it is less likely to support anything which requires intense processing which prohibits realtime playback (such as computationally intensive compositing tasks). SpeedEdit is best used (apparently) as merely an editor; other tasks such as keying, compositing, encoding, etc are best handled by external applications.

    With this in mind, the important thing for SpeedEdit it to be able to properly import/export data to these external apps. In this regard, I salute the avi wrapper, as well as specific TMGEnc support, as excellent features in tune with the core SpeedEdit product positioning.

    In this vein, it is important that SpeedEdit be able to correctly receive footage which was keyed by an external app. To this end, SE needs better alpha support. SE currently only supports Straight Alpha; SE needs to also support PreMultiplied Alpha (BlackMatte, since this is the most commonly used today). Support for Pre-multiplied WhiteMatte would also be nice, though it is less frequently encountered.

    Also in this vein, improved support for still image sequences and support for a wider range of still image file formats is imperative.

    Also essential to being a Speedy Editor, is comprehensive Keyboard Shortcut support. Every menu item should be accessible via a keyboard shortcut. The ToolShed items also should be accessible via user assigned keyboard shortcuts.

    The nature of mouse-clicking in the interface also needs to be brought up to the level of Windows Standards, which is severalfold more Speedy than the current "Block of Wood" interface model.

    Whereas SpeedEdit boasts of being resolution independent, it is important the fix the bug where 3D Positioning Adjustments in subprojects are fubared when changing Project Resolution.

    It appears there is something generally wonky with SubProjects as they currently stand, since SubProjects produce a number of anomalies:

    It looks like the code for SubProjects needs to be revisited, first to fix the anomalies listed above, and secondly to include the improvements which have been often previously requested (apply Effect to SubProject, etc).

  7. #7
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dufusyte View Post
    I like to wax philosophical in these threads.

    SpeedEdit positions itself as a Speedy Editor, so it is less likely to support anything which requires intense processing which prohibits realtime playback (such as computationally intensive compositing tasks).
    ...
    In this vein, it is important that SpeedEdit be able to correctly receive footage which was keyed by an external app.
    Well, make up your mind. It should either allow for computationally intensive compositing tasks, that would mean proper alpha support as well... or not.
    After all, a pure editor wouldn't allow for alphas in sequences anyhow

    I don't agree in general though. SE supports background rendering - which it wouldn't need if it was realtime in all cases. And there's no reason not to leverage that technology.
    Otherwise one might even grab a US$100 editor that has AVCHD support now.

    Cheers,
    Mike

  8. #8
    Registered User Dufusyte's Avatar
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    I was thinking "Divide by Alpha" (Un-PreMultiply) was a pretty swift operation which would not inhibit realtime rendering. In fact, it could be an Effect which the user applies to a clip.

    By computationally intensive compositing, I was thinking more of Blend Mode support, or sophisticated keying (with animated masks etc) built into SpeedEdit.

  9. #9

    features

    yes SE is a stand alone editor, but it has background rendering.
    That sort of makes the more complex things not real time.

    DO NOT keep changing the entire core with every point upgrade.
    Then solicit support by Boris fx.

    I am tired of being left out or to edit in several editors just to do one effect or fancy double alpha transition.

    nuf said
    Pete
    Pete Draves
    CV Productions
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  10. #10
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    Eugene -- ALL of them are long overdue --
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    Bob Tasa

  11. #11
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioProd View Post
    OK, but before Steve can again pipe in that Newtek has added many features over the years, which I agree they did, I simply have to ask: "What has Newtek done for SpeedEDIT users lately?"
    Nah, that would have been true when I last wrote it, but - setting aside semantics (SpeedEDIT serves lots of users every day, but I know that's not what you meant) - I agree with John that a number of updates are highly desirable; and I also agree with those here who pointed out that the list has gotten a bit longer in the last year rather than shorter (from an outside perspective, at least). I even agree with Bob (I'm just an agreeable sort of guy). I'm sure anyone at NewTek would honestly admit an update is running later than hoped. I've commented elsewhere on why, so won't repeat it here.

    I will quote Rich, though: "I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!"

    And that's exactly what I said in another thread. Some seem to think TC is an impediment to SE progress. I personally think that TC's proliferation provides more 'push' for SE growth, and will do so all the more in days ahead. Again, this is my personal feeling, not an official statement of any sort.
    --
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  12. #12
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    I'm sure anyone at NewTek would honestly admit an update is running later than hoped. I've commented elsewhere on why, so won't repeat it here.

    I will quote Rich, though: "I read the Tricaster threads as well and have start to notice that even Tricaster users use SE and are starting to ask for features! Wow, imagine that!"

    And that's exactly what I said in another thread. Some seem to think TC is an impediment to SE progress. I personally think that TC's proliferation provides more 'push' for SE growth, and will do so all the more in days ahead. Again, this is my personal feeling, not an official statement of any sort.
    I certainly respect Steve's opinion, but since I completely disagree with him in this case, I am going to elaborate.

    Steve stated that one shouldn't think of SpeedEDIT as a stand-alone application, one should think of its development totally tied into TriCaster and VT as well, which both also use for their NLE.

    Therefore, everything at Newtek being put into TriCaster HD instead of SpeedEDIT right now is a good thing for users in the long run.

    The entire point, at least to me, of SpeedEDIT stand-alone was that it was supposed to be an INDEPENDENT application. It would no longer have the albatross of real-time in support of switching around its neck. This would let it implement more complicated features as users have been requesting. I certainly think Newtek would be able to provide these features IF SpeedEDIT didn't have the real-time or death requirement, but it does, and if the philosophy that Steve suggests at Newtek is correct, then it always will be that way, keeping SpeedEDIT LIMITED in the scope of its possible features.

    This is a real problem for any SE NLE-only users.

    I agree that TriCaster and TriCaster HD do/will make tons of money for Newtek, but if part of that money isn't going into a truly independent "dedicated SpeedEDIT development team", then no, I don't see a benefit for SE-only users.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  13. #13
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Draves View Post
    DO NOT keep changing the entire core with every point upgrade. Then solicit support by Boris fx.
    OK, well, I can address this one personally.

    I have been a beta tester for BorisFX.

    I had the ear of the right engineer, and even the owner of the company, Boris himself.

    I pushed the idea of BorisFX supporting SpeedEDIT. I really did. This was back in 2007. I even personally connected them up with Dr. Andrew Cross to help make it happen.

    And they were interested. No reason not to grow their market by supporting as many NLEs as possible.

    But once they looked at the SDK for SpeedEDIT, they lost interest and told me they didn't think it would be possible.

    Now I'm not a programmer, so I can't judge the SDK myself, but you don't see any "standard" third-party developers jumping at the bit to develop for SpeedEDIT, do you? Even NewBlue talked about developing for SpeedEDIT back in 2006, and that never happened. It's my understanding that there are certain standard interfaces these companies need to work with SpeedEDIT, that simply aren't there in the SDK.

    Perhaps Bob can comment on the SDK further from his actual experiences programming with it?

    Meanwhile, yes, let's add a "17) Improved SDK for third-party plug-in and third-party I/O board use" to my list.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  14. #14

    sdk

    Yes Eugene I also beta tested for Boris. Also for speed Razor.
    The biggest thing is the "hooks" for third party development are not there.
    The hooks are pretty much the same for all of the other editors on the market.

    As for real time and speed edit... I realize that the editor for vt and tc MUST be real time, but other fx should be able to be used with the disclaimer that they are not realtime. We need those fx and transitions as well although not for realtime playback.
    This is why the sdk is so bad, it changes from update to update while the other editors work even through major upgrades.

    Pete
    Pete Draves
    CV Productions
    Oak Creek, WI
    [email protected]

  15. #15
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    I am on my famous train so I can't go into detail but the se sdk lacks many basic features that are needed to create a nice plugin. That's about all I can say quickly.
    bobt_at_bobfx_com
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    Bob Tasa

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