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Thread: Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2009

  1. #16
    Registered User ted's Avatar
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    Great list Eugene.
    I just got off my tractor and gotta take the wife bowling. I'll have to digest it better and follow-up.
    Better slo-mo is among the top for sure.
    Ted R. Ruiz Sr.
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  2. #17
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioProd View Post
    The entire point, at least to me, of SpeedEDIT stand-alone was that it was supposed to be an INDEPENDENT application. It would no longer have the albatross of real-time in support of switching around its neck.
    I honestly don't recall that particular sentiment ever being expressed in those terms in the entire long period of demand for a 'standalone VT-Edit', Eugene.

    What people did ask for over an over was 'VT-Edit for laptops', for portable use by NewTek system editors. And that's what we finally got. The notion that its development would become completely unglued from its roots runs counter the primary raison d'etre for most for the standalone app at the time.

    To me, ripping out the realtime heart of SE would be a crying shame (now supplementing it in some fashion to support some non-realtime processes, that's something I could get behind). Your personal ambitions for SE might have differed from the majority of expressions - but my recollections are clearly a little different. (I'm also not saying SE's potential cannot ultimately encompass things beyond the original targets, though - that would be silly.)

    if the philosophy that Steve suggests at Newtek is correct, then it always will be that way, keeping SpeedEDIT LIMITED in the scope of its possible features.
    First, let me emphatically state that I have not posted anything suggesting 'a philosophy at NewTek'. I'm just offering a few personal reflections, aspirations, and recollections.

    Second, and again, I think quite a number of the things in the pipe are very, very cool indeed, and - rather than worrying that developing them in any way limits SE's potential - it is my very sincere and earnest hope that in due course they make it into SE in one form or another. And it takes no inside information to see why, in some cases, it could be a waste of time to work on certain aspects of an app when parallel developments might render that work obsolete.

    You've identified what, once or twice (? ) a few personal show stoppers in SE, given your workflow. Mayhaps later this may change, but at this very specific moment in time it really isn't very likely to, long threads or not. I expect that, as my Mom used to say, "It'll be done when it's done." Rehashing all of this minutae (or daily reminders of your showstoppers) doesn't really seem very productive. Someone may argue, 'It wouldn't be necessary to rehash it if my wishlist was fulfilled' - at which point I write the same post I did earlier and we begin an endless loop. But then, as I've written a few times - I'm a 'glass half-full' guy.
    --
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  3. #18
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Well, if that's all people really wanted, those many years ago, then yeah, I guess they got that. Was that really what people requested back before HDV even existed? Yes, it was, back then. You know how many years ago that was? Is that all the rest of you expect today from SpeedEDIT? Please everyone, comment, I could be totally wrong.

    I NEVER once thought the concept of SpeedEDIT was as some kind of auxiliary editor for notebooks in support of a VT workstation back at the office. I was in the middle of all the excited conversations at NAB 2006 that said SpeedEDIT would be this glorious new NLE without limits that would take the independent filmmakers by storm with all its great features. This doesn't sound like your description to me. In fact, either John Perkins or Dr. Andrew Cross clearly stated during SpeedEDIT development that because it was the NLE on its own, it would get the latest developments FIRST, improvements that would later be rolled into the more complicated VT and TriCaster suites, which do NOT have NLEing as their primary raison d'etre.

    Expectations should have been managed better by Newtek back then for what SpeedEDIT was really intended to be. So maybe you're right, especially when I remember a quote from Philip Nelson about the intended audience for SpeedEDIT. Ah well.

    Sure, there would be parallel design, except it's going in the WRONG direction to logic. You don't get the NLE software from the live switcher, the live switcher should get the NLE software from the independent NLE. Going the direction you suggest, it's quite clear which application gets the short end of the stick.

    As for me Steve, I'm done. I promise you I won't start a "Requests for SpeedEDIT 2.0 at NAB 2010" thread next year.
    Last edited by ScorpioProd; 01-19-2009 at 08:51 PM.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  4. #19
    VT5 USER Rich Deustachio's Avatar
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    Thinking back I remember that the hopes of the "new editor" was that is was going to allow many of the requested items on our lists because it was being written from the ground up so we all thought this was NewTeks opportunity to eliminate the limitations that didn't allow the features we wanted.

    After the long wait we found out this was not the case and SE/VT5SE still have the same limitations as before, not allowing us to obtain the needed features.

    If it is possible to write in some/many of the requested features without rewriting from scratch again, I believe NewTek will figure out how to do it.

    I also believe the future of SE depends on it.
    Dynamic Video Productions
    Mount Laurel NJ

  5. #20
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioProd View Post
    In fact, either John Perkins or Dr. Andrew Cross clearly stated during SpeedEDIT development that because it was the NLE on its own, it would get the latest developments FIRST, improvements that would later be rolled into the more complicated VT and TriCaster suites, which do NOT have NLEing as their primary raison d'etre.
    And in the context of that time this proved to be true - for 'many of the requested items on our lists' ... long requested major features that involved a lot of work (HD support, for example). Not the entire list, certainly, but a substantial number. And even in later updates, SE standalone was the first beneficiary of updates (as you well know, having pointed out yourself numerous times that VT updates were running a step behind SE).

    However, I seriously don't think anyone intended any such a general remark to be taken as a hard and fast rule, as if saying 'Some really cool core technology is in development for a sibling product; those engineers must now drop their project and come over to work on SE, wedge their work into SE and complete it there first... then, maybe, we will release them to go back to their normal duties'.

    SE did add a number of important features, and it is untied from the hdwe., and it is definitely possible to 'write in some/many of the requested features without rewriting from scratch again'. And there's no reason at all that some great tech from a live switching system can't benefit a standalone NLE too. It has already done so many times, and I really, really hope it does so again - so your 'WRONG direction' argument falls flat Eugene, sorry. Moving fwd. on another project sometimes saves a lot of work or opens up new horizons in a different one. The simple fact is that the very best way to address a number of the things people repeatedly ask for often requires this approach. (If I gave specific examples, I'm afraid I'd have to kill you.)

    If you can't wait, you can't wait, and everyone understands that - but I simply cannot subscribe to this particular argument ... even allowing for hyperbole. Sure, if everyone dropped everything else to concentrate on SE, it would doubtless advance more quickly. Maybe in short order it would become the only NLE in use on the planet. Maybe that would fully offset the losses from other products both existing and in the pipe. Maybe we wouldn't really miss any new features that wouldn't even be possible to contemplate for SE without parallel development. Even if that were my decision to make, though, (and as much as I'd personally like to see a new release of SE) I doubt I'd bet the farm on that plan. I am fully confident that many very vocal armchair CEO's - if they really had to sit where the decisions are made - would find that they were making exactly the same choices.

    I'd state again that I'm sure everyone likewise wishes an update had come along sooner, or even was here today ... and that all the above is just my own perspective - but this is where we [/Loop]
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  6. #21
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    Wow like the list but I would add:
    Fix the alpha problem and add premultiplied alphas
    Ability to use any image format as a sequence or stand alone image
    Better spline tools or spline tool shed wizards
    Better HDRI format use or just exposure ability
    AE plug-in support (hey we are wishing right)
    LiveMatte type of keying for more control of the key
    CG Post effects that can be added to a letter, word, line or page (snake, explode, rotate in, etc.)

    Obviously my list relates more to animation.
    Take care,
    Jose Burgos
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  7. #22
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    p.s. - although I have added disclaimers, thinking about the above I really wouldn't want anyone later converting personal opinion and speculative remarks into any sort of promise later ... so know this:

    I'm not suggesting above any particular spectacular new tech from parallel projects is definitely going to appear in an SE update, nor even a full release version in any short order if ever. That it could well and hopefully will do so (and I do have a number of very specific notions in mind), sure - but development paths are full of bumps and twists. Things change, sometimes even at the last minute, so it would be a mistake for me or anyone else to infer specific assumptions based on what I wrote above.

    [/invoke Mom]
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  8. #23
    Registered User rbartlett's Avatar
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    From my perspective, SpeedEDIT was about helping the otherwise unattended market reach meet the entrance qualifications for VT-Edit. Part of the more-for-less philosophy that has encouraged the R&D of high capability systems to have a smaller buy almost equal sibling.

    Contrast to this, SpeedEDIT has provided the crown jewels. Yet this is of a product that hasn't had uplifts in all aspects of post-production. It has followed VT[5] which has had some developments in certain areas which haven't been high on the list of needs for everybody.

    So there is still hope and need. The competition has sharpened their tools and the amount of headroom in the PCs we use today has allowed the annoyances of the non-realtime-all-of-the-time NLEs to noticeably dissipate.

    NewTek has some proprietary marvels. As do ORAD and Brainstorm-Multimedia with network CG and tracking virtual-sets. Each vendor takes their line in slightly different directions.

    To the initiating post on this thread. I've not seen anything listed that is contentious. I'd expect to see facilities in SpeedEDIT to better serve the LW animator. SpeedEDIT ought not to be falling short of the mark for bringing together 3D works into finished works.

    We'll see when we see, and I enjoy being wrong. It currently looks like the software house is working very fast but gaining little ground compared to previous years of product output. I look to be inspired rather than appeased. I just know that inspirational works are entirely NewTek's preserve from their past performances.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioProd View Post
    ...More importantly, if Newtek implemented these feature requests, or at least the show stopper ones that I need, I would certainly give SpeedEDIT another shot at being my NLE. Of course, the longer I am away from it, the less desire I have to go back to it, but as of right now, I'd still give it a shot...
    Let's hope, it will all happen after this:
    http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/Read...rticleID=52292
    Thanks.

  10. #25
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpycm View Post
    Let's hope, it will all happen after this:
    http://www.eventdv.net/Articles/Read...rticleID=52292
    One can hope, but as Robert stated, the LW groups and video groups tend to operate rather differently from each other at Newtek.

    More importantly, being an employee of Newtek has given Steve a much better feel for Newtek's internal thoughts than we users have, so I now see he was correct in the "intent" of SpeedEDIT.

    Here's what Andrew says: "Our goal at that time was to do what the users and dealers were asking for, which was to unbundle the non linear editor from the VT suite and that was the primary focus of that effort."

    Also, Andrew points out that "SpeedEDIT was not a re-write of VT-Edit", so that is a correction to what I and others have said in the past as well, though I'm sure we didn't get that idea from thin air at the time.

    So I guess I really did overestimate the intent and goals of SpeedEDIT.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  11. #26
    Production Wizard radams's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    Eugene, Steve, etc....
    I know it's been a long time...but let me wade in here a little.

    First let me give some positive comments to Andrew and the Dev team at NewTek.

    Speed Edit was a complete rewrite and part of the next generation code base that Newtek have been putting together...for the whole video platform.

    That takes time...and when SE first appeared...that was amazing they got that far so soon.

    Now thou...they've had some time...and there are still some huge holes in the workflows...that need some attention.

    SE as a straight cuts editor...is great...the ability to work with multi resolutions...and being for the most part resolution independent...is wonderful...

    But there needs to be much more.

    There is a need to have something more than a balls to the wall cut ups editor...we need better post and finishing abilities as well...along with that we are needing to break that 8 bit color space barrier....

    There is a need to NT to look past just video...
    SE has the possibility to become an editor for ANY media base production...

    ie: arena ribbon displays...or huge multidimensional LED displays, etc...

    because SE can create and work with any kind of input or output resolution...that is a huge thing...

    This would then also open up markets for all of us to help create content for....etc.

    I've been waiting for an editor that will work with floating point color space as well...SE are you going to finally get into that ? it was part of where it was headed...but seems to have been stalled...time to see that completed.

    With the advent of tape seeing it's last days...put more time into MXF and direct support for raw files.

    I would love to see a RED RAw support...but I don't expect it any time soon.

    Then there is the audio side of things...which does need some help...There are too many workflow and routing issues..and basic concepts here which I won't rehash...that still need some addressing.

    One last thought thou.

    The video/post world have so completely changed since SE started and came out.

    Avid is on the ropes, Final Cut has marginalized the Editing and finish post for video and some films these days....Adobe's suite has positioned itself to tackle the online and other media markets...thou is till limited.

    But there are still markets out there...the need for realtime is still there...but also there are needs to fit into specific workflows...from end to end.
    For an expanded color space (with the new cameras, etc...)

    I would like NT to take a new look at the whole video product direction...including SE...
    the Nextgen..is way over due...thou maybe that's a good thing...since so much has changed....

    But we need to stop thinking of media as SD, HD, etc...
    we are now in a time of resolution and color space independence...heck...we are looking at the whole concept of 3D movies and even TV becoming more a reality...

    NewTek...take another look passed where you are.
    Look to where you see the markets and future going.

    Re align your targets and development...
    at least from an outsider...its looking like your a little out of step.

    Cheers,
    Ray Adams
    FX and Production Supervisor

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by radams View Post
    Hello all,

    Eugene, Steve, etc....
    I know it's been a long time...but let me wade in here a little.

    First let me give some positive comments to Andrew and the Dev team at NewTek.

    Speed Edit was a complete rewrite and part of the next generation code base that Newtek have been putting together...for the whole video platform.

    That takes time...and when SE first appeared...that was amazing they got that far so soon.

    Now thou...they've had some time...and there are still some huge holes in the workflows...that need some attention.

    SE as a straight cuts editor...is great...the ability to work with multi resolutions...and being for the most part resolution independent...is wonderful...

    But there needs to be much more.

    There is a need to have something more than a balls to the wall cut ups editor...we need better post and finishing abilities as well...along with that we are needing to break that 8 bit color space barrier....

    There is a need to NT to look past just video...
    SE has the possibility to become an editor for ANY media base production...

    ie: arena ribbon displays...or huge multidimensional LED displays, etc...

    because SE can create and work with any kind of input or output resolution...that is a huge thing...

    This would then also open up markets for all of us to help create content for....etc.

    I've been waiting for an editor that will work with floating point color space as well...SE are you going to finally get into that ? it was part of where it was headed...but seems to have been stalled...time to see that completed.

    With the advent of tape seeing it's last days...put more time into MXF and direct support for raw files.

    I would love to see a RED RAw support...but I don't expect it any time soon.

    Then there is the audio side of things...which does need some help...There are too many workflow and routing issues..and basic concepts here which I won't rehash...that still need some addressing.

    One last thought thou.

    The video/post world have so completely changed since SE started and came out.

    Avid is on the ropes, Final Cut has marginalized the Editing and finish post for video and some films these days....Adobe's suite has positioned itself to tackle the online and other media markets...thou is till limited.

    But there are still markets out there...the need for realtime is still there...but also there are needs to fit into specific workflows...from end to end.
    For an expanded color space (with the new cameras, etc...)

    I would like NT to take a new look at the whole video product direction...including SE...
    the Nextgen..is way over due...thou maybe that's a good thing...since so much has changed....

    But we need to stop thinking of media as SD, HD, etc...
    we are now in a time of resolution and color space independence...heck...we are looking at the whole concept of 3D movies and even TV becoming more a reality...

    NewTek...take another look passed where you are.
    Look to where you see the markets and future going.

    Re align your targets and development...
    at least from an outsider...its looking like your a little out of step.

    Cheers,
    If SE was a rewrite why the heck did they not add standard hooks in the code so we could have some sort of chance to use popular plug-ins directly in our SE NLE?

  13. #28
    Production Wizard radams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richvideo View Post
    If SE was a rewrite why the heck did they not add standard hooks in the code so we could have some sort of chance to use popular plug-ins directly in our SE NLE?
    They did in a limited way....and remember most plugins were not designed for realtime performance...

    Along with that many plugin architectures are proprietary..ie Adobe: which requires an additional licensing agreement....

    I would love to see OFX ...but that is more for compositors...and is still in its infancy...and not designed for realtime. NT is commited to making as much realtime as possible...thus the reason many of us use NT video products...

    But after saying all that...what plug-ins are your wishing SE to have...remember that it is also up to the plug-in developer to support SE not just that NT is support them....

    Yes I would love for magic bullet suit, trapcode, colorista, etc...be usable in SE...I know that some would love to see Boris...(thou that is more up to Boris).

    There are a host of others...but understand that time and resources are limited...I agree that like Bob as stated...there needs to be an updated and improved SDK...but that isn't the whole story...plug-in developers need to also see SE as a market...at this time they don't.

    Just my 2 cents. (which is worthless in todays economy)

    Cheers,
    Ray Adams
    FX and Production Supervisor

  14. #29
    Production Wizard radams's Avatar
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    Now you guys got me going....

    There are several things on Eugene's list that I concure with...

    especially the control and working with sub-projects /groups, etc...

    That there are issues with the workflow that need to be ironed out...to complete it, streamline it, and improve it overall to be a proper end to end solution...at this time SE thou the fastest cut up editors on the planet...is slowed down...to a crawl, dealing with everyday post and finish...and at times requires to many workarounds...
    Even for LW users...which shouldn't be.

    Since NT does have such a hold on TV FXs, etc...

    Better integration with LW...and with (Eye On's Fusion)...
    Would only benefit everyone...and make SE a got to have...for any FX artist...or production/ad agency, etc...

    Add into that adding floating point color space....will then push SE into the highend film/ad projects...

    Being able to work with 4:4:4....and with some additional hooks....SE could be the go to app for any media/display work...for digital signage (which is starting to explode)...etc...

    Think about how we use media these days...abd tomorrow

    We need to be able to work and deliver thru the internet,
    thru DVD's -Blue Ray (I hate Blue-Ray)....but our viewing and delivery have completely changed....
    Even Movies are being delivered digitally for projection...and in 3D...

    We've all been pushing to get things we used to need...or have been driven into from old pracitices...

    Things are changing...even in this economic slow down.
    Avid is on the ropes, etc...

    It is less about how did we do things 5 years ago....
    Adobe is the one who've I got to give some credit to.
    They've looked ahead...and gave up the finish post to Apple's Final Cut....they are now squarely focused on business, and media production...with the internet...and mobil devices...are they there yet...no...but this is the kind of strategic planning NT needs to look more into. To open markets and compete...

    NT from the start has been one of the few companies trying to give us the creators cost effective tools to make our vision into a reality....or those of our clients.

    Now everything has changed in our production world...
    tools, price points...the commodities that Apple and Adobe have made things (Hard to make a living with a limited market).....

    I think that instead of pushing NT for things...
    It might be helpful for us and them to better define our needs now and the future...as to why we need things...what are our workflows and things that make it difficult to achieve our's and our customer's vision.

    Steve has made some good points...that no one tool etc...can do it all....then we need better workflows into and out of SE to help us deal with it.

    Cheers,
    Last edited by radams; 01-24-2009 at 01:16 PM.
    Ray Adams
    FX and Production Supervisor

  15. #30
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    With respect Ray, Andrew stated this very week on the VTNT, in both an original statement and a revision to it: "SpeedEDIT was not a re-write of VT-Edit; I do not think that I have ever represented that it was."

    And from the user's point of view, I think most of us can see it wasn't a rewrite based on the legacy limitiations that are still in it.

    Were there underlying changes, sure there were. Does that currently affect the user experience? Beyond HD, no it does not.

    SpeedEDIT has independence in resolution and frame rates, but does it have it in formats? No, it doesn't. Other modern NLEs support as many formats and more than SpeedEDIT does. Formats have become the new criteria that independence is needed in. New formats seem to pop up every week.

    It's good to know what we need in the future, when the future can be predicted, but I think many of us need the features of your average NLE in the now. My work is done now, not in the future. In the past, Newtek has been bitten before by trying to design too far into the future. Remember the hard drive limitations hit in Newtek products in the past? Sure, eventually hard drives caught up, but for a long time, the limitations of any one part of the chain kept Newtek products held back. This is probably why we saw a TriCaster HD prototype demostrated at NAB 2006, but we don't see it announced till NAB 2009 when the supporting capabilities and demand are finally there. Hopefully we all did a lot of work and made a lot of money in the now between NAB 2006 and NAB 2009.

    Oh, and BTW, welcome back to the forums!
    Last edited by ScorpioProd; 01-24-2009 at 02:14 PM.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

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