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Thread: NewTek marketing and publicity

  1. #31
    Registered User Andyjaggy's Avatar
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    Yeah, instancing is an absolute must, and as for the nodal editor, yeah I would welcome even just a surface dropdown list inside the nodal editor. That alone would improve it 2X. The ability to reference other nodes, to instance a surface across multiple surfaces and objects, change the one and they all update. Drool. Those are the kinds of things that would really be welcome. Make things talk to each other, no more of this isolated tool crap.

    As for modeler, I see your point but I use it alot and can't justify forking out 900 dollars for a certain application. I'm pretty happy with it, make the tools interactive, consolidate, quadruple the mesh editing speed, and add good uv tools and I'll be happy. Oh and the good old CC UV issue should be fixed as well.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    Well.. with those tools alone, you are buying your way around some pretty hefty things in terms of Licenses for MR, Licenses for RenderMan, and on top of it all, you don't have to write some customized shaders that allows for multichannel exr to be rendered with MR. Those extra dollars are small money compared to just getting a proper MR/multichannel exr pipeline up and running.
    well you fell for my 3dsmax trap!
    ..i'm a lightwave/3dsmax user so for myself, the render side of lightwave's 999 nodes is pretty mute seeing as 3dsmax has unlimited render nodes for mental ray via back burner and i also have 10,000 nodes for scanline, radiosity and light tracer too... for maya users, yeah maybe a good point as i;m not sure how many nodes of MR you get with complete but also note maya complete has 4 renderers and not just MR...with xsi foundation you get i belive 16 nodes

    you have a point to a degree but it doesn't work well across the board with all lightwave's competition esp 3dsmax.

    i don;t want to drag this into a flame war, just point out that some peopel's perception of the lightwave renderer 999 nodes doesn't hold water if your also running say 3dsmax mmental ray or use Vray [inc maya] or final render [inc maya] for example.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Andyjaggy's Avatar
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    Well I for one can't wait to hear from Jay Roth as to what we can expect next. I'm expecting big things from v10, and I hope I'm not disappointed. It could really make or break them imo.

  4. #34
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cresshead View Post
    i don;t want to drag this into a flame war, just point out that some peopel's perception of the lightwave renderer 999 nodes doesn't hold water if your also running say 3dsmax mmental ray or use Vray [inc maya] or final render [inc maya] for example.
    Well... I know very little about 3DSMax so you have to do the talking about that!



    My experience of Maya and third party renderers (MR) is that they require alot of custom coding to get them working with stuff that I can take for granted in LW. MR has been around for Maya for a very long time and it's still not as integrated compared to a renderer like LW. The keypoint is; integration without fuss. Just look at Kray or FPrime... there are still things that those doesn't support. So, even if I had unlimited rendernodes for MR, I still couldn't use it without also hiring a programmer that can do the custom coding I require to get up on par with the ease of use LWs renderer has with the aid of Janus and exrTrader.

    So, speaking from a Maya/LW user standpoint I can truly see why people, if given the proper information, would consider to add LW as a render-solution especially if they work in the Visual effects field (which LWs render engine is good for).

    I think NT could act on this... maybe extending the 999 nodelimit / lic as well, provided that their marketing will change to something Stooch mentioned...as a compliment, and also add focused tutorials or demovideos showing how to bring x from app x into LW for rendering (as an example).
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  5. #35
    No offense guys but, do you realize that application features don't actually have much to do with marketing!

    to refresh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing

    ///

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Stooch View Post
    lol. I cant guarantee anything about you. but maybe you should freshen up on your vocabulary skills

    also all of your "ideas" for marketing are kind of too late. Autodesk dominates schools already. with many of the "strategies" you so skillfully ripped off. So lightwave still has to fight the same uphill battle even in schools. The only thing that will generate interest is a compelling feature set. What you are dishing out with your infinite marketing skills assume that your average student will opt to learn free version of LW instead of Maya when 90% of the job market is with autodesk...

    lol. hey sorry to rip into you but you asked for it
    You are not very bright, are you Stooch?

    I didn't say my ideas are new. I even pointed out, quote: (Schools is where Autodesk is whooping your butt!)

    You seriously think its hollywood that determines what application gets used?
    I run a studio and we posted multiple animation positions this week. We got in 3 days about 206 people that applied for it. 205 knew Maya or 3D max. 1 knew Lightwave next to Maya. She got tough Maya at school and learned Lightwave on her own.

    Its the knowledge and the skill of the workforce that drives the marked not the other way around. If you have a ration of 205 to 1 you want to get the bast people to work the job and not loose a 300,000.00 gig over sentimentality.


    ///

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by G M D THREE View Post
    No offense guys but, do you realize that application features don't actually have much to do with marketing!

    to refresh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing

    ///
    Too right. As a software developer I've seen inferior product outsell and depose superior products when marketing takes the priority. You don't have to have the best product to win, you just need to be good at persuading people to buy product.

    Then again, we can all be experts when it's not our money to spend and there are limited resources.

    Feature bullet points don't sell product unless they provide an exceptional USP.

    Paul

  8. #38
    Way to stray off course...hehe. This isnt really a discussion on features...yeah, nifty buttons, lights and knobs may help sell LW, but this more on how NewTek can improve the way they get the word out.

    Colleges and schools....this is a great idea. The major roadblock here is contracts. I know from talking with my program director the art isntitute (when I went there), they are unable to have ANY NewTek products there...I know that alot of the instructors would have loved to have LW there, as most of them used LW...we didnt get into the legal issues, but I'm assuming it was because of contracts with Alias and/or Autodesk...So NewTek would have to find a way to entice places like that to want to go with LW.

    Really market the Apple side of LW...there is a definately growing market there..of course, this may require NewTek to mandate that 3rd party plugs also be made for the Mac version (Autodesk does this for 3rd party plugs in Maya). NewTek could also make some sort of deal and get Lightwave into the Apple store itself, as they do have some 3rd party s/w there.

    I do agree that they never seemed to really have a strong marketing plan (kinda why i started this thread)..LW spread like crazy in the beginning partly due to the success of the Video Toaster..shows like Babylon-5 and SeaQuest were great marketing tools and even credited LW in the credits...NewTek didnt really have to do much, except send Kiki around to shows occaisionallly..hehe.
    Of course, when 3dmax came out, they really started losing ground because max had better marketing strategies..same with maya...it wasn't that these programs were actually better than LW (at the time) it was simply marketing....I remember trying both max and maya back then..they were dismall programs..slow, bad interfaces crappy modeling..but they grabbed their share of the market through marketing strategy.

    Playing the 'rebel' can work both to their advantage, but it can also cause grief if they dont play it right. There are alot of really mad XSI users out there, and NewTek needs to be reaching out to them..LW and XSI are very similar in operation, so migration is not as bad as say from Maya to LW.

    LW 9.5 is a really solid platform..and yes, you can do nearly everything that the big apps can do. I still think they need to get a strong marketing plan in place now, rather than wait another 2 years when they release v10...The economy is dropping and LW may fit in to alot places now..from startup studios to even larger studios that are thinking of finally upgrading from maya-7 (and yes, alot of big studios dont use the latest versions of stuff).
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  9. #39
    Robert Ireland bobakabob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stooch View Post
    My suggestion is always the same. stick to your strengths. Being #1 at rendering and effects is where LW should be. Right now i cant think of a single aspect of LW that is at the forefront of the industry (other than price).

    this is a problem.

    being cheap only means that you will attract the cheap crowd...
    Cheap doesn't have to mean inferior. Newtek have always pitched their pricing shrewdly in a turbulent market and the high quality of the software appeals to a wide user base from hobbyists > one man band freelancers > studio professionals.

    There will always be snobbery but, bottom line, audiences care diddly squat about software. What's up there on the screen is all that matters in the end. Users want to know if Lightwave gets the job done well for an economical - cheap - investment.

    Newtek seem to be working harder, rejuvenating their websites with regular news features and educational videos and seem much more serious about promoting Lightwave productions e.g Fishdog, Iron Man.

    Re: education, certainly here in the UK, it's not too late to develop a proactive strategy, undercut the competition and offer schools and colleges cheap software. There are plenty of Media departments with tight budgets I know with next to nothing on the computers. They should do this soon before Blender fills the gap.
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  10. #40
    i see on several thread's that newtek are to announce their "direction for lightwave" come the start of 2009.

    so, what do you think?
    hope it's not them selling out lightwave to autodesk!...

    hoping to read about lw 10 being 1 app finally!
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  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by G M D THREE View Post
    You are not very bright, are you Stooch?

    I didn't say my ideas are new. I even pointed out, quote: (Schools is where Autodesk is whooping your butt!)

    You seriously think its hollywood that determines what application gets used?
    I run a studio and we posted multiple animation positions this week. We got in 3 days about 206 people that applied for it. 205 knew Maya or 3D max. 1 knew Lightwave next to Maya. She got tough Maya at school and learned Lightwave on her own.

    Its the knowledge and the skill of the workforce that drives the marked not the other way around. If you have a ration of 205 to 1 you want to get the bast people to work the job and not loose a 300,000.00 gig over sentimentality.
    ///
    Actually i am quite bright and have a high IQ score to back it up. i just happen to disagree with you and have elaborated my povs without attacking your intelligence. (because im confident that mine is superior).

    now chill out and explain to me why a student would want to learn lightwave when the industry is hiring 90%+ for autodesk software.
    EVEN IF they had a choice of free educational use for both apps.
    they must be all "bright" like you right? my strategy is quite sound, but you are welcome to try to debate it more competently.

    your puny studio is an exception to the rule and if I was to compare your reel to any serious Maya house, you wont even be a viable option.
    You are only kidding yourself if you feel that LW can do nearly everything. especially as studio sizes go up. Most competent student artists can easily do the same comparison of your studios work and if anything it will probably scare them into learning Maya.

    if your studio has .4% (1/205) chance of hiring a LW user - it makes more sense to get autodesk apps. Thats what our studio had to do because they actually had to hire more than one LW artist... Oh and by the way, our studio has a maya-lw pipeline where all of our animation is done in maya and then point ovened into lightwave BECAUSE OF A FEATURE/TALENT GAP. We would love to see a tighter integration of the two packages. And speaking of talented artists, yes there is a small percentage of talented artists taht will excel with any software. You proved my point because this one person you hired had MAYA AND LIGHTWAVE in her tool set. and my whole point is to COMPLEMENT maya seats with LW seats instead of directly competing with it. Since you just stated that the SOLE lw user you found had experience in both, then it would be logical that this person would buy LW along side with maya.

    "Its the knowledge and the skill of the workforce that drives the marked not the other way around"
    oh really? so what if the vast majority of the "marked" chooses autodesk software? and will do so for the foreseeable future?
    clearly autodesk has and will have newtek cornered in terms of sheer educational resources, wouldnt it make sense to compete with features and useability instead of education??

    oh and another point. your 300,000k projects don't impress me, most serious houses make far more than that and its a non issue to buy any software that's necessary. you are clearly biased by your budgetary constraints.

    p.s. I regularly steal work from studios like yours because i can underbid you while delivering the same or superior quality by myself just thought id throw that out there lol.

    and bobkabob, im not surprised that most professors would learn lightwave, they arent real studios making $$$ so they dont want to shell out for a personal copy of maya. infact what i think is a viable market for LW is to target professional maya users who dont want to shell out for a full copy of Maya for personal use when they can easily purchase a seat of LW, especially if it was complementing their maya work. If anything, as these talented artists become more adept with combining LW with Maya, the chances would increase that their employer will consider adding lightwave to their pipeline.
    Last edited by Stooch; 12-31-2008 at 12:23 AM.

  12. #42
    Valiant NewTeKnight Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cresshead View Post
    newtek have a hard road to tread thesedays with autodesk owning all the major players and so the college "way in" for learning and games and film studio's using autodesk products.
    The way to combat that is for LightWave to play very nicely with other apps.

    Import / export must be robust, well supported and extensive. That way people can use LightWave if they prefer it, safe in the knowledge they can get their stuff out of LightWave into Maya / 3DSMax etc.. Or stuff out of Maya / 3DSMax and into LightWave.
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  13. #43
    Valiant NewTeKnight Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G M D THREE View Post
    I was seriously concerned with posting on this matter ...
    Great post.
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  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    The way to combat that is for LightWave to play very nicely with other apps.

    Import / export must be robust, well supported and extensive. That way people can use LightWave if they prefer it, safe in the knowledge they can get their stuff out of LightWave into Maya / 3DSMax etc.. Or stuff out of Maya / 3DSMax and into LightWave.
    :agree: and add zbrush import/export/setup to basically load the model up and have lightwave autoassign the displacement maps and have the surface settings> a simple tick box to set up everything auto-magically for zbrush models.

    THAT would be neat...i'm also hoping for micropoly displacements in lw10 to make this prospect even better...
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  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    The way to combat that is for LightWave to play very nicely with other apps.

    Import / export must be robust, well supported and extensive. That way people can use LightWave if they prefer it, safe in the knowledge they can get their stuff out of LightWave into Maya / 3DSMax etc.. Or stuff out of Maya / 3DSMax and into LightWave.

    yep that's precisely the point im making. play nice and COMPLEMENT. resistance is futile.

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