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Thread: Text Shift Problem

  1. #1
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    Text Shift Problem

    I create Text over a graphic background for a score bug and alignment looks correct in text tool, but when I save and append to use in live production, the text is shifted about three pixels up, it is a new problem - any insight?

  2. #2
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    I have noticed this as well

  3. #3
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    Anyone else notice this?

  4. #4
    I seems unable to see this. Can you post sample files or Text pages here?
    =============
    Chen Pan

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    =============

  5. #5
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    Positional and color shift in graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by TWCSPORTS32 View Post
    I create Text over a graphic background for a score bug and alignment looks correct in text tool, but when I save and append to use in live production, the text is shifted about three pixels up, it is a new problem - any insight?
    We have a new Tricaster Broadcast latest version (as of Nov 09). We have this same problem where lines of text not only shift but shrink in length when we bring them into a live production. Once in a live production we cannot modify the positions. Also, there is a very pronounced color shift as well once the graphic is brought into live production. This is becoming VERY frustrating and Newtek Technical Support says they have no documented problem such as this. We're at a loss as how to correct this. We cannot keep trying to second guess how it's going to shift and what color it's going to change to and try to anticipate this during the creation or modification of templates. This is wasting our time. Anyone got ideas here?
    Last edited by PGCC-TV; 01-20-2010 at 10:52 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PGCC-TV View Post
    We have a new Tricaster Broadcast latest version (as of Nov 09). We have this same problem where lines of text not only shift but shrink in length when we bring them into a live production. Once in a live production we cannot modify the positions. Also, there is a very pronounced color shift as well once the graphic is brought into live production. This is becoming VERY frustrating and Newtek Technical Support says they have no documented problem such as this. We're at a loss as how to correct this. We cannot keep trying to second guess how it's going to shift and what color it's going to change to and try to anticipate this during the creation or modification of templates. This is wasting our time. Anyone got ideas here?
    Good old Prince George's County Community Television. I stuggled with several Broadcasts until I got mine to stop misbehaving. Try someone else at tech support or send the machine back. I recall in my journey to a good TriCaster that there was some VT script or the other that needed to be replaced and my CG started to work properly.

    Also, contact your dealer. They don't want to lose business and depend on happy customers. Perhaps they can help you and if you're lucky they are local. Did you buy from Washington Professional Systems or ExhortStream or one of the other local vendors?

    Have you attempted starting from scratch yet? That is, wiping out the entire system from the admin mode by having it rebuild the system from it's Linux partition?

    Hopefully your dealer and/or NewTek will be more responsive to your needs. I'd like to think my PG county tax dollars and cable franchise fees (which I'm sure Comcast passes on to customers) were being spent on working equipment.

    Also, take a look above at Chen's request. The guy is a genius and has helped me out greatly.
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  7. #7
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    I have watched this thread carefully to see if I understood the problem and I believe I now do and can render some assistance.
    First to create the problem, I make a title and then save as and give it a name. This automatically creates two png files, one being the entire title. Next I select export page for live to create a title template. I now load the png image into Picture and select Pic on the live bus. Next I load up the new title template and have it as the active TXT. If I now take/Fade the TXT title template overlay onto the Picture, the images do not align even though they were derived from the same title. On top of that and a problem that needs to be addressed, the alpha channel is coming through at different levels. I think I also know why that is but until I am sure, I'll just say it is broken in that the alpha from the TXT is being looked at by TriCaster overlay different than than the png image file Edit Text created.
    So if you are following along, I believe part of the alignment problem/shifting of position, is due to the title template is at a resolution of 1440x1080 (HDV resolution and don't ask me why but it is). This matters a lot when the image you are using in the title is whatever resolution (I say whatever since you can size it and place it in Edit Text) and then when a title template is created, it scales said image to the 1440x1080 size. Now Edit text saves the png as 720x486 (when working in NTSC and not sure about when you work in PAL). So when TriCaster scales each to fit in the frame, they don't line up since they are scaling from two different resolutions.
    Please try this just to humor me as I work on this problem on my own time. Grab a single frame image, which is what you may already be doing to line up your overlay in the first place and open it in a paint program and size it up to 1440x1080. Then save as a copy or give it a new name. Now add both these images into Picture. Now punch up Pic on the Live bus and then the title template in overlay and then press take/fade. If you have the regular 720x486 up first, you will see the shift you are complaining about. Now select the 1440x1080 sized image in the Picture list and it should line right up. Go back and forth to be sure and get back to me.

    So this is a problem because if you grab a frame from a camera pointing at a said subject and use that same image to create a title template to allow overlay at the right location using the image as a reference, it will never line up with the camera since the camera is pushing 720x486 and your template is scaled to 1440x1080.

    Please write back on this thread to confirm this finding.

    Sincerely,
    Jose Burgos
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  8. #8
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    I think you're on the right track! That rings a bell. I made some templates for a church meeting in Toronto and I was running into similar problems. I couldn't figure out why all the template graphics were in HDV resolution, and screwy things happened when I tried to match. I believe what I ended up doing was creating all of the PNGs in the resolution that was going to be used ultimately: 720 x 486.
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  9. #9
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    Well I just spent another couple of hours hacking away at the title template "matching" issue if a name is to be given to this. In a nut shell (what a lie more like a airplane hanger) I have figured out how to correct the template to match/line up correctly. No Sh*& it involves using a calculator, paint program and a text editor. My advantage is my self taught breakdown of the title template file structure. A simplistic explanation is the bk.png (short for background) image seems to be the reference for resolution. it is 1440x1080 so all X and Y values as well as font size are all derived from this image file. If it is resized to 720x486, then one needs to whip out the calculator and change the values of the initialization.toasterscript file to match. If an image is referenced in the script and it's size is 1440x1080 as an example, then you need to now divide the X, 1440 by 2 which gives you 720. Then you need to divide 1080 by 2.199 and then round the number so 491. By doing this, the image is now scaled correctly to match the 720x486 bk.png. Same goes for all position information in the script. Last you need to write down the font size in Edit text before hand for each line of text and then change those values as well since all factors have been changed by the ration 2:2.199. No calculator is needed for font values since the size in Edit text is already correct and it not the same in the script since it was written with the 1440x1080 resolution as it base.
    So not a nut shell at all but I seem to have cracked the code and can manually correct a title template to line up exactly with the original image or camera
    This is no easy fix by no means and I would not even call it a work around. As a matter of fact I take no responsibility if you screw up your template attempting to edit it manually in the manner I just described.

    Good luck and don't forget I am for hire
    Jose Burgos
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  10. #10
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    One correction. If an image is referenced in the script and if you did not resize it in Edit text, then find out it's original size and use that. If you resized it in Edit text, then use the 2:2.199 formula and round off the value.
    Jose Burgos
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  11. #11
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    Jose,

    When I was having similar problems last summer I foung this tutorial helpful: http://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tut_...zetemplate.php.

    I used the reference method instead of the 2.199 thing. I don't think I would have ever figured that out.
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  12. #12
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    Nice write up but it is incomplete. It needs to state that all pixel coord are based on the BK.png image resolution. I do understand now why it saves to 1440x1080 and that is so it is VGA projector ready. That makes a lot of sense otherwise it would look like crap when being displayed on a projector using the DVI GPU port in SD resolution. That said, Title template creator should give us the ability to save for SD video only or VGA ready. I will go further but doubt it is possible, it should create two templates. One for the video out and one for the VGA out and automatically steer each one to the right direction. I don't think that is possible though. So if we could just be able to choose the type of template, this could be some what resolved. Maybe the choice should be normal or video only. This way not much has to be done in re-training users who don't need this feature.

    Anyway, my .02 cents worth of critique.

    Take care,
    Jose Burgos
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  13. #13
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    This also does not fix the alpha channel issue. Somehow Edit Text saves out the alpha differently than is used in the title template. This I seem to not be able to figure out a workaround. My guess would be in the type of alpha it is saving when it saves the png file. My problem with my theory is it is not logical because it would mean Edit Text is saving a premultiplied alpha and not a straight or un-multiplied (divided) alpha which is way crazy since NewTek does not work well with premultiplied alpha and so why would NewTek ever write code to create a premultiplied alpha? Does not make sense.
    But if I have time today, I'll try and see if this insanity is indeed the case.

    Take care,
    Jose Burgos
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  14. #14
    LiveSet Making Machine joseburgos's Avatar
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    It does save a straight alpha and not premultiplied so it is built into the overlay function of the TriCaster that is causing this difference in how it uses the alpha channel.
    I need to work now but feel free to comment on all that I wrote and share anything else you think I left out in trying to "structure/quantify" the problem.
    Jose Burgos
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  15. #15
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    Hi Jose,

    Yeah, someone did explain the higher resolution for for the projector output. They key is the background file - which I don't think I ever realized when I was struggling with it before. I just changed the resolution of everything in the new folder I created as a template.

    I completely agree with you that the process should be easier. I guess that give's opportunity for folks that create templates or template makers to earn a little bread from those who don't have the time or inclination to figure it out on their own.

    You're a great teacher though, and analyst. I have to work on making my trouble shooting as organized as you, and most importantly - writing it down!

    Makes it much easier to share.
    Sandy Audio Visual LLC
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