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Thread: if LW 10 is not revolutionary.... if it is merely incremental....

  1. #1

    if LW 10 is not revolutionary.... if it is merely incremental....

    ...

    then what would make it worthwhile for you?

    for me, for a long time, i have been pushing for my vision of what i thought lw should be. but it's hit me in a big way that it simply might not be possible. for many reasons that i've talked about recently.

    SO.

    if lw does NOT merge modeler and layout....
    if lw does NOT radically change what is inarguably a primitive and aging infrastructure....

    WHAT WOULD STILL MAKE LW WORTHWHILE FOR YOU?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    for me personally, i see it almost as an insult that our PRIMITIVENESS DOES NOT BUY US MORE.

    that we are more primitive than maya and xsi and each of our modules is more stripped down with less to worry about and yet, we lag behind in terms of responsiveness and raw poly pushing.

    if we ARE going to be primitive, then let's GET SOMETHING FOR IT. in modeler, we don't have all the crap from layout. in layout, we don't have all the crap from modeler. SO LET'S DO SOMETHING WITH THAT!

    i think the one thing that would allow me to be ok with the frankenstein hulk that lw has become is if it was:

    RIDICULOUSLY FAST WITH A RIDICULOUSLY LARGE AMOUNT OF POLYS. that would give us a nice niche too if we could handle SIMPLY MORE than anyone else. people might end up simply "resorting" to lw because it really remains fast and interactive where others bog down - that for all the polys it can stuff into available memory, it will remain responsive and usable.

    it may not be as elegant, it may not be as advanced, but it can simply handle more.

    if we can't "go america", let's "go soviet". (probably not a good idea to use that sentence in advertising though).

    also, this MIGHT be a more doable goal... just throw everything at speed and mass - might be comparatively easy to do compared to "teching up".

    any other alternative visions?

    jin

  2. #2
    Well I'm hoping LW10 is really something because I have to decide if I'm going to upgrade my other license of Lightwave 8.

    Right now, I would like to see some big improvements coming in modeler. Let's get those UV tools that we've been waiting for with the ability to pin and unwrap interactively along with a good relax operator. Lets work on consolidating tools. I want an all in one bevel tool that rounds too and works in most cases. Let's fix CC's and make them efficient as possible. More interaction with modeling tools. I should be able to take a spline, lathe it, and then be able to adjust the spline and have the lathed polygons move with the spline. Same goes for spline cage modeling. Let's fix symmetry to work with all operations and that includes adding and deleting faces. Either that or give us the ability to clone meshes, and by that I mean all your clones update when you make changes to the original. Give us lattices and more deformation options.

    But I have to agree Jin, I would really like a boost in the speed and handling of high count polygon scenes.

  3. #3
    cool, yeah... that's the spirit.

    so everything you mentioned hr doesn't require revolution or a completely redone infrastructure/codebase... all that stuff seems tremendously do-able.

    jin

  4. #4
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    In LW for me I feel like I'm painting a very large oil painting or sculpture . . .eventually I will get to that beautiful image with lots of subtle details and I always have lots of control. But is fine beautiful detailing always a good thing to start with? For things such as CA and special effects e.g. hair, water, fire, goop, cloth etc. I always feel like making something general, broad and primitive is a hard thing to do because my tools are so damn small. They are good tools and they provide infinite amount of detail but they seem to be geared toward only details and not the large broad strokes necessary to quickly block things in. So in other words it takes a long while to get to those details.
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  5. #5
    NewTek Developer jameswillmott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    In LW for me I feel like I'm painting a very large oil painting or sculpture . . .eventually I will get to that beautiful image with lots of subtle details and I always have lots of control. But is fine beautiful detailing always a good thing to start with? For things such as CA and special effects e.g. hair, water, fire, goop, cloth etc. I always feel like making something general, broad and primitive is a hard thing to do because my tools are so damn small. They are good tools and they provide infinite amount of detail but they seem to be geared toward only details and not the large broad strokes necessary to quickly block things in. So in other words it takes a long while to get to those details.
    That's really insightful, I feel the same way.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jin choung View Post
    cool, yeah... that's the spirit.

    so everything you mentioned hr doesn't require revolution or a completely redone infrastructure/codebase... all that stuff seems tremendously do-able.

    jin
    Well, as far as the handling large polygon meshes, I think it would be cool for Newtek to come up with something revolutionary. Instead of relying on OGL, perhaps they should come up with their own proprietary system to allow us to work with, and just as importantly, render high polygon objects. Pixelogic has their own system and it's obviously working well for them.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    I should be able to take a spline, lathe it, and then be able to adjust the spline and have the lathed polygons move with the spline. Same goes for spline cage modeling.
    I hope not because nobody will buy EasySpline http://www.easyspline.com anymore..

    Interactive Spline Lathe tool with parallel spline patching enabled video:
    http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug...ineLathe_1.mov

  8. #8
    Javis Jones: Night Crew geothefaust's Avatar
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    Jin, I could NOT agree more with you. I would really like to see LW turn into a beast as far as poly pushing goes. Assuming that we can't get a new, "techy" version with all the sweet bells and whistles (or at least half of them, or some of them working half the time, lol).

    I've been slowly compiling a list of things I want and some I need.

    UV Edit tool request

    Similar to Maya
    ____________________
    Selecting by "shells" or parts
    Sewing seams (by edge selection)
    Moving and sewing seams
    Select a seam and unfold a part
    Aligning vertices by average U or V
    Relax UVs centered on a poly, vertex or user location
    Warping like Maya, a 9 point grid overlay, completely allows the mesh to be deformed within this grid, quite awesome
    ____________________

    I want all tools to comply with global, local, normals, object, and mouse coordinates and constraints

    I would like to see tools consolidated, no more bevel, smooth shift, super shift, multishift, etc. I want one shifting tool.

    Anything that has to do with surfacing an object (texturing, displacement, normal maps, clip maps, etc) should all be in the same location

    Previewing normal maps, displacement maps, color channel, etc, all in an OGL viewport (or like HR said, if they create a new revolutionary system)

    ***A history stack***

    Animateable everything. This means, a bevel, a tweak of a vertex, so on and so forth
    ____________________

    That's all I can think of for now, I know there is more kicking around in my noggin. But I am running low on energy at the moment. Also, sorry for the poor grammar. I am at work and in a big hurry.

    Long story short, yeah. If it can't do some of those things (and I think they are reasonable) then at least give us a huge poly crunching beast, PLEASE!

  9. #9
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Beta is ongoing and at the risk of breaking NDA Newtek is restoring my faith and many others with some dedicated bug squashing and insanely useful late developments. I am extremely pleased with where they are going. Joints are awesome.

    But yeah, what Jin suggested. Sheer performance is a sure way to win me over.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    I hope not because nobody will buy EasySpline http://www.easyspline.com anymore..

    Interactive Spline Lathe tool with parallel spline patching enabled video:
    http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug...ineLathe_1.mov
    Sorry Sensei, I can't help it. Now that I've been using XSI, I'm spoiled.

  11. #11
    I have to agree with performance boosts. Also I would like to see deeper support for other software and plugins so things like Blender and Houdini can more easily be used with Lightwave, and things like Shave and a Haircut don't get closed out. Also I'd like hooks for python and other scripting, and rock solid operation all around.
    One thing I really liked recently was the addition of RenderQ. Things that enhance or open up a better workflow are always a welcome asset. I feel just recently, there have been a lot of great things added to Lightwave, I commend the programmers on all of it. Not to complain, but I made a major upgrade path decision back at LW6 thinking it was going to have a complete overhaul back then, but it seemed more hit and miss through versions 6-7-8. The recent 9.x builds, especially 9.5 and up seems more like the direction I invested in. I'm quite happy with it so far.
    One other thing I think is vitally important is detailed learning and reference material, maybe mixed with marketing and promotion. I don't know much about IKBooster, but I feel like it's something important that I have overlooked. Some of the other new features are kind of the same way. I like to experiment, but sometimes I just need to know something specific to get a job done.

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  12. #12
    cool ideas....

    but so that this thread might hope to be different than all the other lw10 threads, try to keep features in keeping with:

    IF LW WILL NOT GET A REVOLUTIONARY OVERHAUL.... IF IT IS INCREMENTAL....

    then, what would be those things that newtek could do with largely the same infrastructure that would keep you interested in lw.

    jin

  13. #13
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    What people already have stated; incredible polypushing (both app and renderer). You can easily move around a single object that is over 1 mil polys in Layout, but if you have 1500 objects, not even bounding box will make it play smooth (i.e animate camera, look though it and hit play).
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    but if you have 1500 objects, not even bounding box will make it play smooth (i.e animate camera, look though it and hit play).
    right! exactly. we should always be responsive and better than bounding box if at all possible. i'm hoping for something where people might really despise lw because it's not technologically competitive but they're dragged kicking and screaming there because it still WORKS when everybody else grinds to a halt.

    again, if we're not as techy, we should take advantage of that and just do the low level poly pushing like a monster.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    it is my fear that you have to get quite techy before you can push such huge amounts of polys. especially as it concerns things like deforming meshes....

    i'm HOPING that's not the case.

    that they can just make a concerted effort to really optimize and hone existing tech, leverage the more primitive architecture of lw and beat something like xsi "gigacore"...

    jin

  15. #15
    Javis Jones: Night Crew geothefaust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    I hope not because nobody will buy EasySpline http://www.easyspline.com anymore..

    Interactive Spline Lathe tool with parallel spline patching enabled video:
    http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug...ineLathe_1.mov
    Hehe. EasySpline does rule. IMHO, you should be working at NewTek and helping them on modeler tools!!


    I think a history stack would help with this one though as well. Being able to rail extrude a circle for a pipe, then beveling it in hundreds of places for some details, then you realize that you missed something, or, you actually needed it to travel along a different path. Well, currently you're kind of screwed. But with a history stack you could just go tweak the spline you did the rail extrude from and, voila, done. XSI has this down pretty nicely.

    I guess only time will tell. But, here's hoping it's more then what we expect.

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