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Thread: How to Light indoor and outdoor ?

  1. #1
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    How to Light indoor and outdoor ?

    Hi all.

    This as been bothering me ever since the beuty of GI and FG came to the wonderful world of 3d.

    If Im doing an interior scene, but need to have props or nature outside a window, that will be seen in the shot. How do i light the scene to get enough light indoor, without blowing out the outdoor? Do i have to boost the incoming light with a area light or am I missing something.

    No matter how i try to do it like the nature does it I eather get dark interior or totaly outwhited exterior.

    thnx in advance guys.

    //Salv8or
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salv8or View Post

    No matter how i try to do it like the nature does it I eather get dark interior or totaly outwhited exterior.

    thnx in advance guys.

    //Salv8or
    That is, in fact, what happens in real life. If you don't see that in the movies, it's because they cheat. But take a picture yourself, from the inside of a room with a window, and you'll see.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Salv8or View Post
    Hi all.

    This as been bothering me ever since the beuty of GI and FG came to the wonderful world of 3d.

    If Im doing an interior scene, but need to have props or nature outside a window, that will be seen in the shot. How do i light the scene to get enough light indoor, without blowing out the outdoor? Do i have to boost the incoming light with a area light or am I missing something.

    No matter how i try to do it like the nature does it I eather get dark interior or totaly outwhited exterior.

    thnx in advance guys.

    //Salv8or
    Actually in nature it is your eyes doing the lighting. What mamholoz is saying is correct. And to be more specific, it is the lens of the camera that can not make the distinction and can not handle the contrast. I have not played with GI enough to get a full handle on it but it seems like it should work the way your eyes perceive it. So that if it is too dark in the room that is because there is not enough light coming in or the properties of the material in the room are not conducive to bouncing light around. In "nature" (that is including how your eyes perceive it) light comes in a window or other source and bounces off the walls to create ambient light in the room. So you could have full bright sun outside, and see clearly inside and your eyes handle the contrast as long as it is not too great.

    Now somebody can correct me on this but the way I understand it is you adjust the properties of the GI with bounce to get the light to create ambiance. But I am going to guess the higher that setting the more time it takes to render so people use lights and luminous polys to help. Just like you would use lights or bounce cards in the real world to control your light.

    One setting I have played with in GI is the intensity setting. If you leave this at 100% it gives you no room to play with the light. If you set it as 50% you can add lights in for more control.

    Interested in what the people who actually know something about this have to say however as I want to get more of a handle on it myself.

  4. #4
    If you want an interior to be lit by exterior light, it will of course be drastically darker inside than outside. Exposing a photograph for both of these simultaneously is impossible in real life, so if you fake it, it will look unrealistic.

    These rooms are dark even though the exterior is blown out :
    http://www.altphotos.com/Gallery.asp...&photoid=51912
    http://www.altphotos.com/Gallery.asp...photoid=360406
    In order for the exterior to exposed well, the interior would have to be extremely dark.

    Similarly, interiors that are exposed and shot from outside will always come out dark.

    I think a bloomed window is more attractive, but if you still want inside and outside exposed to similar levels, well this is 3d, it was made for faking things =)

    Set your lighting to the right level for the interior and render it without the exterior, then do the same for the exterior, and composite them together in photoshop.
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  5. #5
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    Hi again.

    Thnx for the replies.

    So what you are saying is that we will have to composit it.
    Isnt there a way to make the exposure hapen in lw daarkroom?
    Ive tried but everything i do in darkroom comes out like crap. (I think its becouse i have no clue to what im doing, maby need a weekend class in photoexposure)

    However, I whiped up a room and a scene to show what i mean.
    One of the renders is with arealights simulating ambient light coming in throu the windows, and one is without.

    Its lit with one area as the main light(sun), one dome for ambient(sky), and i added one dome in the same direction as the sun as the sky is brighter from that direction. (In my expirience anyway)
    No lights inside exept for the ones that simulates the window ambience.

    Can i get a good image in virtual darkroom in the image witout area lights as is, or should one boost the light so that it gets to the point where theres enough light inside? (or is the secret in between)

    Comments, ideas and pointers are all welcome.

    //Salv8or.
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  6. #6
    there is lots of ways to fake it. you can get all complicated if you want, but the simplest thing would be putting a point light in the middle of the room to add a bit of fill.

    yes its not realistic but thats why pro photographers buy light kits.

    another trick is to place an area light in the window so that its roughly the same size and shape - facing inside. its nicer than the point light because its more localized to the portal of the window. giving the light a more realistic distribution.

    basically pro lighters have used tricks like these long before GI came into the picture. i think that these skills are still vital to lighting and must be used in combination with GI for best results and control.
    Last edited by Stooch; 09-06-2008 at 01:23 AM.

  7. #7
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    here are 2 images made with the 9.5 version......

    as has been said above already you will need to balance the diffuse levels for your surfaces inside and out differently as its obviously brighter outside.
    some clients dont care whats phyisicaly accurate as they want to see what is inside and out in the same image..............

    the best way to go about it is get the interior gi set up to a point that you are happy with and then work on the outside surfaces............
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  8. #8
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    richardo: Very nice images.. So you have the diffuse of the outside surfaces set to like 70% of the inside surfaces?

    So theres no way to have libraries of stuff and thinking that you can reuse the objects in a nother project without having to alter the material params?

    I dont know.. it seems easier to adjust the lighting to fit the obj surfs rather then the other way around?? Just for the fact that one can have one basic light rig that perhaps says dalight, and tweaking the surfaces in that same lighting rig, you shold then be able to reuse the obj. in any scene without tinkering with the settings. But then that might be in a dream world??

    My thought on how to aproach it in the future after reading this so far:
    Adapt the light in the shot to fit what I want, and not trying to mimic reality and fiddeling around with virtual darkroom to get the balance with a "physicaly correct" light setup.

    I would realy want to know how all you guys takle the problematic indoor outdoor scenario.

    //Salv8or
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  9. #9
    yeah dont go adjusting the diffuse of objects for lights its not a good idea in general, especially if you work with other people or share your assets. Infact thats the quickest way to get yourself ***** slapped on any collaborative project. just make the surfaces as physically correct as possible, you will thank yourself if you ever have to reuse any of them for different scene setups. you can take the best GI setup in the world and its still possible to improve with traditional techniques used in conjunction with GI. also if you never take the camera outside, i recommend you just use an image plane for your ENV and tweak THAT instead.
    Last edited by Stooch; 09-06-2008 at 12:43 PM.

  10. #10
    so the quickest way to get a nice indoor/outdoor GI render.

    make an env sphere.

    apply a nice image, use the env as an ambient light source.

    add a directional sun light.

    make your surfaces using physically accurate settings and adjust the outside lighting for a typical exposure.

    your interior will now be too dark.

    add portal lights to windows or additional fills.

    done.
    Last edited by Stooch; 09-06-2008 at 12:47 PM. Reason: reason for adding a dumbass time limit?

  11. #11
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    Stooch: Thnx a bundel. Ive been fidelig with dponts SunSky-plug a bit today.. And it works very well. I used window/portal lights as you mentioned, and I think that i might have scene to do my material tests in.


    How aboute using Limit dynamic range. Will that bring down all values above 100% and clamp it there?
    Nothing to use when tinkering with virtual darkroom then?


    Thnx to all of you guys.

    //Salv8or
    9.6

    Need i say more ?
    Yes, soon we'll have core!
    L8est reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NnXaP121WQ

  12. #12
    Dreamer MooseDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salv8or View Post
    ....How aboute using Limit dynamic range. Will that bring down all values above 100% and clamp it there?...
    if it's for a still, use the exposure controls in the image viewer. the subject of limiting dynamic range has been raised recently 'round here, but imho why throw away the extra information? use it to your advantage instead.

    if it's for an animation, use the hdr exposure image filter. easier than virtual darkroom, not as flexible but easier and i like that
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  13. #13
    Dreamer MooseDog's Avatar
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    just to elaborate if you don't mind.

    screenshot 1 is the render, screenshot 2 is the render with some exposure changes. with full dynamic range, the info is all there, you just have to go looking for it
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  14. #14
    Richardo, very nice work as usual... one thing i see here and in most LW interiors is the lack of hues where GI gets darker - see higher wall corners. Probably i's a desider result, but in hi-end engines there's often a slight cromatic hue here, usually sepia or cyan depending on lighting (or emotional intentions). Often Lightwave interiors can be spotted because of too strong de-saturation of diffuse shadows, which tend to plain gray and make pics look less real and a bit old school.


    Paolo

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MooseDog View Post
    if it's for a still, use the exposure controls in the image viewer. the subject of limiting dynamic range has been raised recently 'round here, but imho why throw away the extra information? use it to your advantage instead.
    :agree:
    Limit dynamic range is a bad cheat, it bakes in any clipped values and flattens the lighting.
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