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Thread: Some after thoughts

  1. #136
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    You're telling me that Robochan was the most visually stunning?...not on this planet. If Robochan is considered "eye-candy"...then Rosie Odonell is a sex goddess!
    Last edited by AbnRanger; 08-17-2008 at 08:22 AM.

  2. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    How is it not relevant? The scoring is just as subjective as any other contest. If an entrant's work is much more professional than another's, that takes a back seat to criteria as subjective as "what's interesting?" Please, you're making no sense here, whatsoever.

    Quote:
    Winners will be announced at SIGGRAPH 2008 for the most visually stunning, original work that illustrates the power of LightWave right out of the box. We know that creating eye-candy is a high-calorie endeavor, so here’s how we’re going to sweeten the deal:
    It is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with this contest. We are talking about the entries to this contest.

    And that quote has nothing directly to do with how the judges picked the entries. That is just a general mission statement. If the entires in this contest did not live up to that in your opinion, that is an entirely different subject.

    How the judges scored is listed on the NT site here and on the first page.

    If you are making a point otherwise than the OP which was that the contest was unfair again that is another subject and one of my main beefs. That is just laking in good taste to knock the entries of this contest. I said that before with my reasons.

    And for the record before yo think I am trying to convince you or anyone else of anything. That is not why I am here. I am here because these things need to be pointed out in levity to things I think are unfair to say here and in this situation considering the artists who submitted.

    I could give a rats *** about your opinions. I am glad you have them. I actually agree with many of them in certain ways. I am fine with it. Really. I only think it is fair to the artists to at least chime in and say the things I think need to be said in refute to certain assertions and claims here in this thread on this forum at this time in this circumstance. Especially when I think those claims are refutable and also are therefore unfair to say here now.

  3. #138
    We-Co® Filmz We-Co's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    You're telling me that Robochan was the most visually stunning?...not on this planet. If Robochan is considered "eye-candy"...then Rosie Odonell is a sex goddess!
    Thats hurtful.
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  4. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by We-Co View Post
    Thats hurtful.
    Yup you're right, that is hurtful.

    AbnRanger... you're sore!

  5. #140
    Super Duper Member kopperdrake's Avatar
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    This conversation is sick. I know Dominic personally - and I imagine he's gutted at the personal diatribe being bandied around on this thread by certain members. If you have an issue with the contest, may I suggest you email or phone NewTek - to slate the winner of the contest is totally unprofessional and in no way deserved.

    This is the problem with the internet - people can so easily detach themselves from any need to be polite or act with any decorum. Pathetic. You (anyone who's stooped to personal attacks or who insists on pushing their point once initially made) may have just lost all of us the possibility of entering another NewTek competition if this is the kind of girlie face-slapping that ensues. Thank you.
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  6. #141
    :agree:

  7. #142
    We-Co® Filmz We-Co's Avatar
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    Excatly, just like I said before I think you got your point across, now you're just being mean.
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  8. #143
    Globally Illuminated The Dommo's Avatar
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    Ok, listen up y'all

    Hey people.

    I've been following this thread since it began, and the "THAT stigma" thread also. I thought it time you heard some things from my point of view regarding my entry to this contest, especially as quite so many of you seem so peeved over it.

    After you've all had such strong opinions, I hope you'll take the time to read this.

    Firstly, I do feel I need to express how disappointed I have been - but actually with the community here. Sorry, but considering the reputation LW has for having the best community out there, my God, you people can be so harsh and derogative. To the people who expressed encouragement and even praise in my direction, I am thankful. That said, at least over the last day or two, the anger seems to be more directed at the judges' decision rather than how bad some of you think my work was.

    I am a guy who likes to get his facts together before making decisions or responding to things. So, I did check out the links from signatures to the homepages of a few of the people most critical of the standards of Robotochan. I was surprised to see though that these people giving the harshest criticism of my efforts probably need to focus on what's going on at home before they talk outside.


    Now, let's get one thing clear. I was as surprised as all of you folks to find out I had placed first in this. It's not something I had imagined would happen in a million years....

    As you've gathered, I've not been using LW particularly long, although I have been in and out of 3D for many years (in Softimage 3D first (without any manuals, online tutorials or anything), then 3DS MAX up to v.5, again both pretty much self-taught), so I do know a fair bit of theory of it all as well. I did then have a lengthy time out from hands-on 3D work from 2003 until recently. Now I'm on LW, getting my head around it all, and trying to figure it all out and move forward for the first time in ages.

    So, why did I enter?

    As I said, I've been out of 3D for some time. Starting a company with a mate, our bills are mainly paid with video and DVD work. We like to do things very properly but in our city, people don't like spending money and think that hard work is cheap - compared to London and L.A. Where people expect to pay ridiculous hourly rates and are happy with that. So, most time and energy went into just surviving.

    Some of you have described my level of this entry as hobbyist. I'd like to clarify that I don't see myself in that light. I've put far too much time, energy and money into loving 3D for it not to be a part of my life. Even when I've not been hands on, I've kept abreast of technology developments and had 3D on the back of my mind. For those of you who are employed in 3D work exclusively, it's no wonder that you are very familiar with your tools and can churn out high-quality work very quickly. Lucky gits you are.

    However, with business here the way it is, it simply means that the hours I can use for 3D are of the 'out-of-hours' flavour.

    When I have been using LW more sporadically rather than more solidly (in this spare time) since March this year, I had mainly spent the time learning ways of modelling in LW, so therefore, pretty much in Modeler exclusively, aside from rendering. Examples of my first LW real sub-D model is here and another Futurama-based one is here. I enjoyed working on them both.

    Then, suddenly from nowhere, this LW contest appeared. I ran it through my mind, wondering if I could or should enter.... After some thought something inside me told me Yes. Why? Because this would allow me to make a complete little project, rather than just a modelling exercise. It would be a great learning opportunity for me. I also wanted to rise to the challenge, to see what I could do in the short space of time. I know I'm the fastest modeller - how could I be? But knowing that 15% of the overall score would be assets... perhaps I may be in with a chance.

    That said, in all honesty, of course I did not expect to win. At most, I hoped I might get a response from NT saying "thank you for your entry - you didn't win but we can see you've got some potential". You know, a pat on the back and a biscuit. I imagined that whoever won would have their name announced at Siggraph, and the winning entries would be shown just the once, for what would be the contest results Event.

    So I set about wondering what I could possibly do, with the little knowledge of LW that I have. I've not really had a chance to play with LW bones, or any weighted movement of soft human / animal tissue over joints. So, that narrowed my choice of animation down to something mechanical.

    This pretty much led me to thinking "robot". Yes, as Evolross raised, this is a no-no these days. Fair point. I'm normally on the ball with that sort of thing, but in this case it didn't cross my mind. Don't know why.

    One of the hardest parts was trying to think up a story (as I said in my Q&A, story is key) which fulfilled the brief of "Model | Animate | Render", which is a tough brief indeed. As far as I saw from WIPs and the top 4 places, only one other entry seemed to directly address this brief. However, the method they employed was not very integrated into the final presentation. The way my story would unfold would answer this brief in a manner that was integral to the story.

    Regardless of what I was to create, I wanted to make something that was humorous, and was entertaining because of this. That's just the way I am and what I like to do with my own projects - get a laugh from people.

    I have to say that many of you have been somewhat superficial in seeing 'just' a robot. I wanted something stylised. I researched around the net (google images is useful) and really liked the style of those 1950s toy robots. Admitted, because I wanted the robot to have some lights on its body, I added some other elements which were a bit more 80s. Relatively speaking, yes I suppose it is made up of what are primitives, but this is also what the reference images I was working from were made from in real life.

    However, there was a hell of a lot more that went into him than just primitives. There were many things I had to figure out how to do in LW. There were times I'd modelled a part and then realised that I would not be able to fully animate that section the way it was, so had to break that model part into pieces and fix/rebuild what I had taken apart.

    True, the robot himself did not have much in the way of UVs, apart from in the mouth area where I had to apply them to get the lighting to work correctly there. Those mouth lights were driven by nodes which I had to figure out, to make both the light power and its colour be driven by a single input. The same material also drove the SIGGRAPH background lights. The material was designed so that when the lights were hot, they would cause beautiful motion and depth-of-field blurs. So for that it also worked a treat.

    Evolross, yes it is a blocky model, but that's the way those toys were. As for the rigging - well as I said, I've not had a chance to play with bones in LW and figure all that stuff out, so this project did not have any rigging as such, just a bit of parenting and some old skool FK animation all the way.

    Stooch, yes the animation was basically rotations, but with more care than simple keyframes - there was attention to the smoothness of the f-curves and to secondary motion also.

    Evolross, the environment needed more? Totally agree - but there was a deadline looming so I had to move on. As I intend to finish the piece as I saw it in my head in the next few weeks, this is one of the things I'll be addressing.

    Julez4001 - Well, at least even if Robotochan fits the kiddie art genre, you think it did that well. I'll consider that a small positive note. In fairness, I wasn't aiming the piece at any particular audience age group, just trying to meet the brief that was given - Model | Animate | Render. If you can model that exact same material and apply all the materials that I did in 2 hours, I take my hat off to you. I'm still figuring this stuff out in LW. I spent a good few days of spare time on the 'bot himself and everything to do with him.

    Abnranger - minimal effort? You may think that, but the time I spent learning LW for this, as in figuring out how to achieve what I wanted all throughout the contest time, and the hours I put into the whole piece (including a fair amount of work that had to be cut out due to deadline), I used all my spare time for around 5 weeks, and pretty much ignored my girlfriend in the process. I worked on it till 2-3am most nights, then going to work as usual, and then rinse 'n' repeat 7 days a week. As you can imagine, there was a lot of tiredness, so sure, I wasn't even going at my own full speed, let alone what speed you LW gurus work at. By the way, the two scenes that got dropped did feature UV work and some all right materials too. However, I found a lot of settings NOT to use in GI as it was taking like 23 hours to render an HD frame. Another reason those were dropped from the final entry.

    IMI - yes, I did try to answer the brief. I have to figure out what 'the client' wants, otherwise I don't earn any kind of living!!

    As far as I can tell, the Robotochan did not break any of the rules of the contest. I worked hard to work within the boundaries given. When the deadline was extended, I did not add extra scenes. And the two key scenes missing from my piece were the ones which answered the "Model" and "Animate" sections. The dance section was just the "Render" part.

    Anyway, I am going to continue this Robotochan project, regardless of what you people think of it. I need to complete the whole story, so I know the job is done and I can close this off in my mind. If nothing else, at least the robot has some character.


    I too can crit the other entries that I saw, just as I can easily crit a lot of the work of ILM. It is very easy to criticise, but a lot harder to do it yourself. Nothing is perfect. Unless you are Pixar anyway. I really loved the visual style of Black Snow. Weekend Factory was also pretty entertaining, whether judged on 15 second version or not. I really like the humour in the rabbit and carrots one, particularly enjoyed the detail of the first carrot's scream becoming 'un-muffled' as the rabbit's finger is lifted off the carrot's mouth! The 2nd place work was excellent - though I hadn't realised it was from Final Fantasy....

    At least Eugeny managed to show some gratitude in that he had several pieces of work shown at Siggraph. Pat on the back and a biscuit for you, Sir. Most people would kill for this, I am sure.

    Frantbk - "NewTek has pissed off most in this community so they will not give any work to show case Lightwave if asked, so NewTek made up the contest to get some new content. That's all this is about, this never had anything to do with a real contest with real standards." - Don't know, I've not been around here long enough at all to know about past contests.

    Shrox - "I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care. And fine work there Dominic." - sorry dude, but I agree that a company should show the finest work that can be done. No need to take this out on me.

    Julez4001 - "Was Iron Man plastered on Newtek's front page during Sig, no but ROBOTCHAN was" - again, I agree the most top-notch stuff should be shown. I only imagined that whoever won the contest would get an announcement and like one single showing for that part of the event.


    Moving forward to the future... Ok, how about this?
    We have more small contests, not necessarily with prizes to fight over, and not to be shown at Siggraph (unless the result is particularly awesome).

    To those who criticised the robot's animation, how about a LW contest where NT (or somebody) supply a character, with a few objects in scene, properly rigged. A clip of audio is provided to animate to. The rules are simple. No extra models, no materials, just pure animation of the rig provided, rendered only through OpenGL. I believe I would fare ok in this kind of contest. It would also be comparable to racing cups in Europe where every driver has exactly the same car, and the race outcome is determined only by driver ability - bar mechanical failures. I was thinking along the lines of what was the 10 second club - somebody elsewhere on this forum has discussed a new 11 second club.

    I for one also want to see Lightwave become better recognised. I'm here for the long haul, no matter what you people think of my work. I'm probably one of the most driven and hard-working people you could meet, and in the past, I've been described as a machine. Both my colleague and I have had to work 48 and even 72 hour shifts, with the only breaks being a very quick time-out for food and a drink.

    So, as for contests or getting the best stuff shown at Siggraph.... How about people stop talking the talk, and start walking the walk? How about we talk to Newtek, I mean really talk to them. Ask them for a brief. If they don't provide one, then why don't we club together, in this community thing we have here? Make a story of some kind, refine it, everynody figure out what they want to do to chip in. We model it, UV it, texture it, light it, rig it, animate it, and render it - and then having discussed the whole thing with Newtek, and hopefully have their backing after the free hard graft, hand it over on a plate and say "now guys, try showing this" ?

    Doesn't that sound like some kind of a plan? I mean, if it can be done in Blender, why can't we do it? You've got the tools. Between us all we have the knowledge. All it needs is a lot of love.


    To finish what will probably be only post on this thread-
    I will never claim I am the best in the World in anything, because there will always be somebody better or faster or more able than you.

    However, after my initial gutted feelings and actual attacks from certain people, I have to say THANK YOU. I'm 28 now, and I have had many naysayers over the last 15 years of my life, telling me I can't do this, or won't achieve that. I've proved them all wrong. So, THANK YOU to all you negative people. I have recomposed myself, and now I'm going to move forward. You naysayers give me drive, drive to prove you all wrong. I vow to you, here and now, that I'll keep improving and I won't stop still. Over time you might see more of my work on these forums, and I hope that each time you will look and admit that I have gotten better.

    Peace out.
    Dom
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  9. #144
    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Very well said, Dommo, all of it.

  10. #145
    Registered User Kuzey's Avatar
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    Nice response Dom...that robot made me laugh indeed.

    Maybe, next time there should be categories to the contest like toons, realism, architectural, sci fi etc. etc. Also, throw in a ten license copy of LW...so studios would feel it worthwhile to enter the contest too.

    Newtek could pick the winners of each category and allow people at Siggraph to pick the over all winner and be in a draw to win a copy of LW themselves.

    Kuzey

  11. #146
    Congratulations on your win, Dommo!:agree:

  12. #147
    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    I like the suggestion he made of some sort of community-based project. For those of us who are more or less only hobbyists and wannabees with enough time on our hands, it could be an awesome experience, and great practice as well.

    Speaking of contests, I've long wished NT would appoint some member who was interested to run some sort of contest or challenge forum here.
    I know the other LW forums do that sort of thing, as does CG Talk, but the more the merrier, eh?
    Plus, since this is NewTek's official LW forum, it would seem a no-brainer that they'd have such a thing here.

  13. #148
    Man of many cells. shrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dommo View Post
    Hey people.

    Shrox - "I am probably one of LW's first major users in game development. But NT never seemed to care. And fine work there Dominic." - sorry dude, but I agree that a company should show the finest work that can be done. No need to take this out on me.
    I sent you a PM, don't worry it's nice.
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  14. #149
    Registered User Eugeny's Avatar
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    Dominic, i really sorry that this thread rolled to bad comparisons. Then i started this thread i wonted to point on NewTek, not on u personally. The problem that u fault between two fires in bad time. As u stated u was not here long enough to know another contest and probably u not familiar with situation with NewTek marketing politics and attitude.
    As i stated before i think that your entry was absolutely legal (and also after seen the screen grabs of the "Black Snow" i don't have any questions to that entry anymore).
    Yes i think that your entry don't deserve first place, but i don't think that my entry was deserve any place as well (then i saw the second place entry my jaw was on floor, and that transformer robot with tank is really cool also). But i did found your work cute and funny. U did absolutely right move then u you have decided to participate in competition, there is nothing like "drive" of competition, especially then u make a wip thread and post your progress to get some feedback.
    As for me I'm freelance and my wife running her small business, so i know that is this "to survive" (if u think your work paid mach less then in London or in States, believe me here in Israel u lucky then actually your work was paid ).
    I had the idea of making that scene (my main entry) quite a long time, but newer had a time to do it. So the competition was great opportunity to make it. I was running commercial project at the same time , so to finish it in time I'm also worked really hard (14-16 hours a day) with no attention to my kid and wife. The two last days before submission was sleepless (that's why i was so disappointed by extracting dead line, i tough it's was ended but it's was not ). And i think other participants of competition was working hard also.
    So, as i said before, enjoy your prizes and make some good use of them (at last u need that learning materials more then me ).
    Peace and good luck

  15. #150
    Congrats! Despite how enjoyable the forums can be, a thick skin is sometimes in order .. when it rains here, it pours.

    Though there has been enough quoting of the competition rules recently, you did the "out of the box" truly justice.

    Congrats to the rest as well, an impressive turnout for a VERY tight schedule. Alot of hours in great work here, let's not devalue it any further with speculation.
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