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Thread: Some after thoughts

  1. #91
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMI View Post
    It wouldn't be wrong to say that robot animation was "What LW can do in the hands of a talented Artist.". It may not have conformed to alot of people's idea of 3D done by talented people, many of whom probably equate "good" 3D animation as the best impersonation of reality as possible.
    Well, I initially chimed in to support Eugeny's question about rules being broken. He was being called a sore loser, and undeservedly so.
    Beyond the rules issue, the other artists who worked their marbles off with VERY high detailed models and well executed animations...only to be upstaged by a primitive model of a robot, borrowed from an introductory modeling class. What a slap in the face, to these guys. They might not say it, but I bet they certainly feel it.

    I doubt a single person here believes the winning entry was the best example of the group, to demonstrate what LW is capable of producing.
    If you do...I have a bridge in middle of the Atlantic to sell you. Better hurry, Surrealist and Newtek are considering the purchase too!

  2. #92
    Registered User Tippsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by We-Co View Post
    Nobody loves America more than me, I'm just saying this conversation got pointless when everybody knew that NewTek is not going to change the decision whether or not they followed the rules. Your and my opinion doesn't matter at this point, or does it?!?!
    Ya just like voting for who should be the next president or even discussing it are opinions and the things we think wont change anything so keep it to yourself? I think Newtek is looking for opinions and needs to know what there users like and dislike I think that's part of why these forums are here so I think we should definitely feel free to voice are opinions and yes even argue and fight a little.

  3. #93
    Registered User Tippsy's Avatar
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    GO AbnRanger WHOO WHOO!!

  4. #94
    We-Co® Filmz We-Co's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tippsy View Post
    Ya just like voting for who should be the next president or even discussing it are opinions and the things we think wont change anything so keep it to yourself? I think Newtek is looking for opinions and needs to know what there users like and dislike I think that's part of why these forums are here so I think we should definitely feel free to voice are opinions and yes even argue and fight a little.
    Right, and I think you already did that.
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  5. #95
    Registered User Tippsy's Avatar
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    ........ good point but more fighting = more fun right? hmmm maybe not....

  6. #96
    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    Well, I initially chimed in to support Eugeny's question about rules being broken. He was being called a sore loser, and undeservedly so.
    Beyond the rules issue, the other artists who worked their marbles off with VERY high detailed models and well executed animations...only to be upstaged by a primitive model of a robot, borrowed from an introductory modeling class. What a slap in the face, to these guys. They might not say it, but I bet they certainly feel it.

    I doubt a single person here believes the winning entry was the best example of the group, to demonstrate what LW is capable of producing.
    If you do...I have a bridge in middle of the Atlantic to sell you. Better hurry, Surrealist and Newtek are considering the purchase too!
    Well I agree about the rules being broken, but that's not what I was talking about - I only meant about the winner, who didn't break the rules.

    I also felt some sort of need to point out that the winner... won... at least according to NewTek - and it was their contest, after all.
    However hard anyone else may have worked, however inferior other people see the winner's entry as having been, the fact remains that's NewTek's deal, since they made the decision, and I think it's out of line to publicly insult the guy's work, when all he did was render the animation, not render the decision.

    Do *I* think it was the best? No, but I think it was pretty good as far as promo stuff goes. I think by doing what he did, he knew exactly what they were wanting, and I also think that's a sign of someone with a talent to know what the "client" is looking for, so I have to respect it for that. That is the bottom line in this business after all - deliver what the client wants.

    Again, though, were the intentions of NewTek ill-communicated? Maybe, maybe not. The winner seems to have understood what they wanted. Maybe everyone else read more into it than was intended. Maybe the WOW! Factor never played a part to begin with.
    Is it possible NT liked it because of its simplicity?
    In any event, I maintain it would be better policy for people to direct their anger or shame towards NT, not towards the guy who won the contest. Meaning, in private, since there's probably no way to berate NT without also berating the winner.
    Last edited by IMI; 08-16-2008 at 06:28 PM.

  7. #97
    Registered User AbnRanger's Avatar
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    For what it's worth...I seriously question NEWTEK's decision...an egregiously poor one, IMHO...not Dominic for his work. If he felt it sufficient to enter a simple bouncing ball animation, that's fine and dandy. Doesn't make a difference to me, one bit. BUT...when Newtek shuns the hard work of the other artists in favor of the bouncing ball (which this robot is mighty close to), I don't give a damn about diplomacy. I'm going to speak my piece.
    And you're certainly free to speak yours.

    You are right, though...Newtek made their bed...now they have to lay in it. Money out of their pocket, not mine. I seriously doubt these other artists will feel motivated to enter any future contest, though. Once bitten, twice shy, methinks.

  8. #98
    Witty tagline coming soon cohominous's Avatar
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    Man, this has really turned into a contentious subject. It's too bad too, because when you think about it, Newtek held this contest for us.

    I'll say it again... they did it for us. If they were really solely concerned about marketing for a trade show, don't you suppose they could have gone to a kick-a** Lightwave creative house and hired them to do the reel - or tapped a select few users to do it? They didn't have to include this community at all. We would have been none the wiser and had an amazing demo... and then we'd be reading threads about how we never have any contests.

    Did they break their own rules? Who knows? They came out and said they didn't... who are we to call them liars with no real evidence? Don't they deserve more than that?

    Some of you are saying NewTek did Lightwave a disservice by picking a sub-par (not my opinion) winner. You know who's doing a HUGE disservice to Lightwave?

    We are.

    We have multiple threads on this forum complaining about this contest- and actually trashing other users work! It's disappointing. That would make ME really eager to join it.

    Before I got Lightwave, I had worked with Alias/Wavefront (yes I'm old), Softimage, Strata and (long ago) Lightwave. When it came time for my company to get a 3d package, I CAME TO THIS BOARD to see what the community was like. At that time, it was FILLED with people eager to share encouragement, techniques and knowledge and never made people feel stupid for being a noob. That was the deciding factor.

    To everyone's credit, it's still mostly that way. It's known by other software users for being a great forum to learn.

    But I've seen a shift in attitude lately. We now have threads trashing another member's use of pre-made content to express an artistic idea. It got so bad the author asked for all his threads to be removed. That's not the community I joined. Don't you realize that up until VERY recently NONE OF US (3d artists) were taken seriously by the art community? We were ALL seen as button-mashers.

    But back to the point. I have no problem with users expressing their opinions. But can't we show some respect for fellow users and their work? You didn't win. It sucks. Be gracious and respectful if you're going to make comments. The Dommo is new to Lightwave and how have some treated his hard work? With derision.

    All he did was enter a contest... and he won. (AbnRanger is one of the few to clarify) He obviously has some talent. Do we want to lose someone who already chose Lightwave because some members have bruised feelings? Or how about the hundreds of visitors a day who are trying to decide which package to choose? Is this what we want them to see? Multiple threads of complaining about Newtek, Lightwave, our fellow community and each others opinions?

    Let's not make Newtek sorry they tried to do something for us. They made some mistakes. We let them know. Let's give them a chance to see how they handle it in the future.

    There are so many talented, helpful people on this forum. Let's show we can be gracious and civil - even in disagreement. Someplace Lightwave users can feel good to be a part of.

    Now.. Let's all sing Kumbaya. (Had to lighten things up a little.)

  9. #99
    Registered User Tippsy's Avatar
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    Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.

    Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by cohominous View Post
    because when you think about it, Newtek held this contest for us.

    I'll say it again... they did it for us. If they were really solely concerned about marketing for a trade show, don't you suppose they could have gone to a kick-a** Lightwave creative house and hired them to do the reel - or tapped a select few users to do it? They didn't have to include this community at all.
    Now.. Let's all sing Kumbaya. (Had to lighten things up a little.)
    However they may have to flip a bill to get the kicka$$ creative house to do so. As others have mentioned, the timing was short for a lot of folks, certainly I would have wanted to, but I knew I couldn't get anything (I would precieve as) worthy out.
    I think about the 9.2 community reel and how it had a broad venue of talent.

    Newtek needs MORE CONTEST (especially if they are not going to join the other 3d apps under CGTALKs' various contests) but they have to know that the folks out here are watching them.
    CGTalk went through this same process albeit under slightly different subject matter.

  11. #101
    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    For what it's worth...I seriously question NEWTEK's decision...an egregiously poor one, IMHO...not Dominic for his work. If he felt it sufficient to enter a simple bouncing ball animation, that's fine and dandy. Doesn't make a difference to me, one bit. BUT...when Newtek shuns the hard work of the other artists in favor of the bouncing ball (which this robot is mighty close to), I don't give a damn about diplomacy. I'm going to speak my piece.
    Well, you're certainly within your rights to question their decision, but I have to question the thought behind it being made so publicly known what you think. Because you're either preaching to the choir, or fanning the flames - either way, people either agree or disagree and need no convincing or argument.
    But I have to disagree about the "...hard work of the other artists..." part. Who's to say it wasn't hard work for the winner? Equally, does "Hard Work" alone qualify someone for extra points? Also, who's to say one person's idea of "hard work" is somehow more valid than some other person's?

    In the end, it's a matter of opinion. One person's experience of what is Hard Work may be another person's opinion of a bad day at the office. In other words, anything which fails to conform to the rules of the contest is fair game for the most obnoxious criticism imaginable, but you can't use your own personal definition of Hard Work to say one entry was lesser than another. It's all relative - to a professional animator with loads of experience, it's probably a very simple thing, while to a n00b, it's probably a major achievement, and just as much "hard work".
    What, you don't remember when you were green?

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Tippsy View Post
    Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.

    Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!
    Yes opinions are fine. I mentioned that pages ago. The point is and the thing that was lacking is we were given a contest, some guys won and literally within hours this thread starts up - he even posted a link to it in the winners page to draw attention to it - and next thing you know the thing gets dragged down starting from pointing the finger at NewTek and immediately it lowered itself to trashing the work of the artists who won, unfairly and in very bad taste when you consider that this is the community the contest was for.

    Yes we all have opinions. But we also have manners. And we should know when - despite our opinions - to show some respect and do the right thing.

    We would not have words like respect, manners, polite and so on if it was not easy to just state or opinion. Stating one's opinion is easy. Anybody can do that. How many people can stop, think and decide. This is not the time. Now is the time to put that aside and show some respect for the people who won the contest we were given to show what we can do.

    That is not too much to ask. Is it?

    You would not get so much complaining and arguing about the lack of respect if people would have just known when to clamp it. Suck it up and just say, despite all, congrats! In this instance on the day the contest winners were announced, that was the right thing to do.

    As far as the Marketing decisions that NetTek made that does not even need to enter into it here. Certainly not if it means - now at the time the contest winners were just announced - having to make derogatory statements about the artists who won.

    What happened here put into another context is like having an awards show at a film festival and having all of the filmmakers jump up and start a shouting match right after the awards because as soon as the winners were announced one of the loosing favorites stood up and shouted "The contest was fixed! They broke the rules! The people who won should not have been allowed to enter!" And then that immediately turned into a wild discussion and debate about the artistic merits of the films that won.

    There is a time and place for everything and even in this instance if there were some rules broken there could have been many more polite respectful ways to handle it - in the view of the fact that this is our community of artists.

  13. #103
    Pancakes! IMI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tippsy View Post
    Look I don't think anyone is "trashing" anyone's work almost everyone here has said they are not after anyone work! Just because its peoples opinions then we shouldn't feel free to express them? You have your opinions I have mine and so does everyone else I think we should be fine about discussing things that happened.
    And if in the course of discussing someone's perceived failure of the contest it becomes necessary to trash all the winners, but particularly the first place winner's entry, all is good? That's what you're saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tippsy View Post
    Although yes some people have gotten a little far out of hand but there's always gonna be somebody that thinks different that's why we have such diverse and wonderful 3d work!
    Diverse and wonderful describe the works of the community. There's nothing particularly diverse or wonderful about schadenfreude directed at a third party, via someone else.

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnRanger View Post
    What does the title of the thread say? It is what it is...some after thoughts. I'm not sure what it's like where you live, but America is a free country...free to opinionate...to agree and to disagree. Do we need to check with you first before doing so?
    Yes and also free not to. And also free to know when it is not the right time to say something - like hours after the contest on the forum and in the thread the winners were announced (he posted a link to it in the winners thread). In the community that the contest winners are from.

    And regarding all the other stuff you said. I am not going to go into a debate here. I respect you have other opinions about what I have to say. I don't have a problem what that at all.

    I have said what I had to say and I am OK with it.

    I just thought this thread needed a little levity on the other side is all and that has been done.

    At this point a little respect for the artists at this time is all I ask. Can't make people do that of course. But you can ask and it can make people think about it. Next time we have a contest for whatever reason and in whatever capacity maybe we can think again before rolling out the opinions about the winners.

    That is my opinion.

  15. #105
    There was a contest?

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