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Thread: Slow reaction

  1. #31
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCommonGrafx
    Question: if any or all of the following were 'fixed', how much of a need for Vegas8 would you need and would you have shelved SE?
    Valid question. You're right, add in FrameServer to TMPGEnc to your list, and SE would be able to do all I need and I wouldn't need Vegas 7 (soon to be Vegas Pro 8 for an upgrade cost of $149.95!)

    Quote Originally Posted by UnCommonGrafx
    NewTek is a rebel company that can behave outside the box in giving it's users what they want.
    But isn't that a double-edged sword, Robert? I mean, I would think a rebel company is gonna be thinking mainly about the exciting stuff, like stuff others haven't done, versus the needed standard stuff that others already have.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnCommonGrafx
    Was that you, Eugene, sending a request in once a week for Virtual Sets?
    Damn, caught me, Robert!
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  2. #32
    NewTek Engineering ACross's Avatar
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    I am surprised that so much is being read into the fact that SpeedEDIT reacts slower than VT-Edit did. This is not a company conspiracy to hurt our users If this is an issue (which it sounds like it is) then if you ask me, it is a bug that we need to fix ...

    Andrew
    Last edited by ACross; 09-14-2007 at 02:22 PM.

  3. #33
    Grizzled Veteran jcupp's Avatar
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    It's an issue, on my machine (Intel MB, PentiumD 3.4GHz, nVidia 7600) there is a variable delay after pressing play of between 1 and 2 seconds. And a similar delay after pressing stop. VTEdit on the same machine is instantaneous. Scrubbing is almost impossible; it just jumps in what looks to be two second intervals unless you are zoomed way in.

    Even turning off the video output window completely doesn't make an appreciable difference in the reaction speed.
    -Jeff


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  4. #34
    TC User Group
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    If this is an issue (which it sounds like it is)
    Seems everyone that uses it noticed. Don't you guys have a copy?? You can use mine, I'm not using it...

    Ivan

  5. #35

    Could the Wrong Display Card Be the Problem?

    I have been having problems with my SE not wanting to play my clips properly. Tech support suggested the problem might be caused by an inadequate video display board. Could this be part of the problem here as well?

    I have been running the Nvidia 5500 (poor SE performance). I have just replaced it with the Nvidia 7300 GT (SE performance some better), but my system is still unable to playback properly half of the time.

    I think Newtek needs to let us know if there are known problems with the throughput of our graphics cards - and which cards are acceptable with SE.

    It would be great if SE performed as well as VT4.6 with the same graphics cards.

    Joe

  6. #36
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    But that's the thing, it certainly should perform as well as VT-EDIT can do on the SAME system with DV clips. There is no reason it shouldn't. I don't see any reason one should need a more powerful graphics card with SE than with VT to get the SAME performance for DV.

    And honestly, I can get as many real-time DV layers with SpeedEDIT as I can with VT-EDIT, but I have heard this isn't true for everyone.

    But the issue here is the reaction speed of the playback controls, that's where SpeedEDIT falls down.

    In defense of Newtek, I am willing to bet they are only running SE on higher-end current machines, so maybe they don't see this problem at all. That's certainly possible. If so, I really think they should try it on the editing workhorse machines that many of us still have, cause I don't think SE scales down very well based on computer capabilities. It scales up well, but down, no, based on this thread, if nothing else.

    And again, if one is only working in DV, one certainly shouldn't have to upgrade ANY of one's hardware to fix the problem in SE, if VT-EDIT doesn't show the problem at all.

    And yes Andrew, it is bugged in Newtek's bug database.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  7. #37
    Multimedia Developer PeteF's Avatar
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    Lagging performance on Dv is concerning. However, I must have been spoiled by uncompressed/newtek RTVs and the instant responsiveness of VTNT/2/3. I still have Bob's old realtime RTV plugin for Premiere 6, and cutting RTVs on that was a simple joy.

    I'm testing Premiere Pro 1.5.1, CS3, against the demo of Vegas 8. I find that vegas has alot more controls in regards to playback vs. PPro, and it's possible to degrade the video enough to keep it going. One thing for certain is that PPro only plays well in desktop or VFW mode, and in my opinion, for straight cuts single layers, Premiere seems more responsive at quality resolution vs. Vegas, yet quickly falls apart on effects as the project builds. Vegas, through reduced playback quality, keeps going and makes it possible to finish the job quicker and avoid delays in hung apps and crashing.

    PPro uses a huge amount of resources and it's easy to understand the instability issues as you can quickly run out of room to play. Funny that adobe says that PPro automatically degrades to keep things going. That may be the issue, as it virtually stops or goes to black while the audio keeps churning along. Vegas uses only half the resources and provides twice the capability and controls.

    My point is that HDV is memory intesive format, regardless of whether it's mpeg or cineform wavelet avi. I would expect miracles of full resolution, full screen playback on my old dual xeon. But I like how Vegas deals with that very issue by allow me to choose the compromise to keep things flowing smoothly.

    How does Speed Edit compare? Is it more like Premiere or Vegas in that respect?

  8. #38
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    This is what Vegas has always been good at.. playing on lesser machines.
    What its not good at is going is scaling up to uncompressed playback at full
    resolution. It also doesnt have multiple color space support as Premiere does.
    So its kind of a trade. I am surprised that you are seeing such instabiity.
    Premiere Pro (1.0) was very stable, maybe adding all the HD formats have
    made it unstable.

    Bob

    PS When I read you were using RTV's in Premiere 6 it put a smile on my
    face. Those were real hard plugins to make ut taught me a lot.

  9. #39
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteF
    How does Speed Edit compare? Is it more like Premiere or Vegas in that respect?
    Well, if you're picking between the two, based on your descriptions, no question, SE behaves more like Premiere than like Vegas.

    But honestly, that's really not the right program to compare SE to. SE is most like EDIUS 4. Both SE and EDIUS 4 are real-time/full-quality ALL the time, or else NOTHING. Vegas degrades gracefully, while your audio never starts stuttering or such. Stuttering audio is what will happen if you exceed the real-time capability of your system with SE or EDIUS 4. SE would need to background render FIRST, to prevent this. You would need to pre-render in EDIUS 4.

    This is why I also feel the Vegas method is superior, it doesn't slow me down, and I see and HEAR all that I need to to get my edits done quickly and correctly.

    Of course, if you have the newest most powerful PC out there, and if you are staying in the real-time playback domain, then SE or EDIUS 4 will give you a higher quality preview output in real-time than Vegas 7 will.

    But once you start to go to an older, slower machine, Vegas 7's method is the only practical solution.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

  10. #40
    Multimedia Developer PeteF's Avatar
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    Bob, PPro is fine with SD resolution. PPro 1.5.1 is more stable than CS2 and CS3 with HDV material, albeit slow and more like Vegas in choppy playback. My only guess is that CS3 now uses more resources to make up for the playback, but for the sake of stability. I can see this happening on my dual xeon, but not my quad opteron. I frequently take projects home, and can tell you that both machines exhibit the same issues. Just poorly implemented code.

    I think Vegas would be the compromise, as Eugene points out, I can still edit acturately to half-rez, slightly soft video that doesn't skip a beat vs. full rez, stuttering material. If the folks at Adobe would just give the user more controls over resolution, rathen than just "draft" mode. Frankly, were talking about proxy's anyway -that's basically what Vegas is doing (even AE does that), and doing it in realtime. That's impressive when you think about it.

    What I like about the vt3 is not so much the live, but how impressive it looks when editing with clients. Even if I edited a piece on Premiere, I would preview the final clip in vt3. So a vt5 upgrade concerns me in that respect. Sounds like it's nothing more than a seat of SE with hooks into the card.

  11. #41
    Registered User SteelPicR's Avatar
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    I went from a dual Xeon to a quad machine and from VT2 to VT4 and and I'm seeing a very noticeable difference in lag time. I just did a multi-cam project to music and it took way longer than it should have due to having to readjust clips and zoom in and out to get the cuts where they should be. Sometimes it's the little things that make a big difference! I never had this problem with VT2.

  12. #42
    Paintball Video Geek billmi's Avatar
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    3rd party patch for pause delay

    The recent passing of a friend left me with some open time in the car on a road trip. That meant some time to poke around with ToasterScript and dig under SpeedEdit's hood a little, and resulted in this scropt.

    It doesn't fix the problem of SpeedEdit not stopping playback immediately when the space bar is pressed, so much as provide a work-around, so that the lag doesn't leave the edit line past where you wanted it to stop.

    CMS Brakes replaces SpeedEdit's pause/play function that is activated by the spacebar, k or <shift>k. It compensates for the play/pause lag by stopping playback and then moving the edit line back to where it was when you hit the space bar. Even though you'll still see the lag as SpeedEdit skids to a halt, the edit line will end up where you wanted it to be, which is what matters in the end.

    To install it CMS Brakes, download the .zip file, open it, and drag cms_brakes.ToasterScript to c:\ProgramFiles\NewTek\SpeedEdit\Skins\VideoEditor \MainWindow\Main\UserScripts or equivalent directory if you have SpeedEdit installed somewhere other than c:\ProgramFiles\NewTek\SpeedEdit. If you are running Vista, Windows will require you to confirm the action.

    That's it. It will be in operation the next time you run SpeedEdit. If you don't like it, just de-install it by deleting cms_brakes.ToasterScript from the UserScripts directory and it's gone. Because it runs as a user script, it does not replace, delete or alter the installed SpeedEdit software.
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  13. #43
    I found another workaround. Click on the pause icon instead of using start/stop. Although cumbersome it does start and stop the clip almost instantaneously
    Mick Haensler
    Director of Media Services
    The Fountains Wedding and Conference Center

  14. #44
    30 days to live axaboss's Avatar
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    I haven't used my copy of SE professionally since I bought it. I monkeyed with it, but its not a very effective program overall. Reaction time is vitally important in pro-editing. This should have been implemented since day one.

    Currently I use it on small Lightwave approval samples for clients. I won't take it further than that.

    Sorry NewTek. I gave it a chance. Can't recommend it to anyone until it's improved. I'm still hopeful.

  15. #45
    We are working on the issue and it does relate to having to use random Windows audio cards and buffering frames to assure A/V sync and accurate framerates.

    If you have the VT card output enabled, have you noticed an improvement in stopping?
    John Perkins
    Software Engineer

    "No, it's my natural color..."

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