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Thread: Canon HV20

  1. #1
    Cultural Engineer Liber777's Avatar
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    Canon HV20

    Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?
    << Nothing is true, everything is permitted >>

    DaVinci Resolve, Fusion, Generation, LightWave, ChronoSculpt, NevronMotion, REDcine-X Pro,
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    Hv20

    Quote Originally Posted by Liber777
    Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?
    I've been using SE to capture footage from Canon's HV10 with no problem. The 20 is basically the same camera, only with the ability to record at 1080/24p in addition to 1080/60i.

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    I've been editing a bunch of HV-20 footage. Captured it all in SpeedEdit. Sometimes the video from that little gem can be amazing; in terms of contrast, color, and sharpness. Compares quite favorably to 1'st generation 3-CCD like the Sony HDR-FX1. Easily the most bang-for-buck in a consumer HDV camera.

    I've been down-sampling HDV 1080i into 960x540 59.94p which looks phenomenal, and processes quite well (stabilization). Usually my processed footage is 960x540 59.94p with NewTek SpeedHQ 4:4:4 codec. Mixes well with raw HDV in a SD timeline.

    Capture from the HV-20 into SpeedEdit works as expected. The HV-20 responds quickly to controls. Scene detection works perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liber777
    Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?
    [url]www.imagicdigital.com[/url]

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    Imagic,
    How are you down sampling HDV 1080i to 59.94p? Since 60i has two fields, how are you getting to full frames? To play 60i as 30p I've been dropping a field and re-interpolating the remaining field to make a full frame.

  5. #5
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    24p problem with the HV20

    Beware, the 24p is not easy to extract from the tape of the HV20. Ive discovered a nasty little problem with this.

    http://www.box.net/shared/static/15ydiu43co.jpg
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

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  6. #6
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    I this a HV 20 problem? The 2:3 pull down is really fielded?
    Cause it sure doesnt look like 24p to me. 24p has no fields.
    OR? is there need for special capture utility?
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  7. #7
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobt
    I this a HV 20 problem? The 2:3 pull down is really fielded?
    Cause it sure doesnt look like 24p to me. 24p has no fields.
    OR? is there need for special capture utility?
    Canon reps and others have explained to me that the HV20 captures MPEG2 to tape with a 2:3 pulldown for 30 frame per second playback- meaning there are 2 frames with interlaced fields for every 3 frames that dont have fields. The signal is also shrunk to 1440x1080. It does not capture 24p to tape. They tell you that all you have to do is have capture software that extracts the 24p signal by doing a 2:3 pullup during capture, or you need post software (After Effects, Fusion, etc) to run the pullup after youve captured it. That would be fine except the problem is that MPEG2 compresses the signal in a way that discards part of the chroma info (resulting in a 4:2:0 signal) which results in subtle color smearing that would not normally be noticeable. But because of the pulldown, the fields are slightly smeared, along wth the rest of the frame in a way that they can not be fully extracted with a normal pullup. I see forum comments that the 24p playback 'looks jaggy' but most consumers dont know what is going on exactly. It looks jaggy becausee there are slightly straying fields in the motion at all times (will not notice in images with less motion). I had to run a 'strip and interpolate field 1' then a 'strip and inertpolate field 2' operation in Fusion to entirely get rid of the fields, but this slightly blurs your image vertically, and some resolution is lost.

    However, the HV20 is suppose to capture directly to a hard drive at 24p, thru the HDMI connection without any interlacing. Am not sure about the firewire. I have not tried this yet. I bought it to shoot in the field, not in a studio.

    It seem retarded that Canon makes, distributes and advertises this as a 24p camcorder but then they assume you will only ever want 30 fps video when shooting 24p to tape. A rep explained that this becasue they assumed that most consumers who buy this camera do not really know what the 24p is good for, and they just want to see it playback on their 30 fps TV screens.

    Meanwhile, it seems fraudulent that Canon does not warn in anyway about the inherent 30 frame tape recording of a 24p camcorder. I dont get why there isnt just an option for this. Instead, the taped 24p signal is always ruined. I assume the 30i taped signal must be ruined as well.
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

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    What's up with the HV-20's?

    Holy crap! That is terrible news about the 3:2 issue with the HV-20's. I've got a couple HV-10's, but was looking to upgrade to the 20's.....until I read Mr Rid's comments. I love the 10's, but I need TRUE 24p for compatibility with 24p film. Anyone know of a DECENT way to get 60i down to 24p without jumpy framedropping? SE is dicey, so is Fusion....and marginal with ReelVision.

  9. #9
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo3D
    Holy crap! That is terrible news about the 3:2 issue with the HV-20's. I've got a couple HV-10's, but was looking to upgrade to the 20's.....until I read Mr Rid's comments. I love the 10's, but I need TRUE 24p for compatibility with 24p film. Anyone know of a DECENT way to get 60i down to 24p without jumpy framedropping? SE is dicey, so is Fusion....and marginal with ReelVision.
    I usually read that even expensive 'prosumer' camcorders are always fudging the 24p as well as the alleged 1920x1080 image. It sucks that the HV20 actually has a true 1920x1080 CMOS, but then dumps it down to 1440x with a pulldown to tape. WTF?! You have to stay attached to a hard drive to get the 1920x 24p. And I see no portable disk recorder that works with the HV20 or any consumer camcorders.

    In post, many people think it is fine to use some 'strip field and interpolate' tool to remove fields from video, but all such one-step tools discard half of your vertical resolution and motion blur info.

    I'd love to know a better way, but I use Fusion (can use After Effects, etc, or even automate a batch in Photoshop) to 'strip and interpolate field 1' then do a separate 'strip and interpolate field 2', then merge/superimpose the two sequences 50%. This maintains your motion blur, but the faster the motion, the more apparent the superimposed frames may appear. Then retime the image for 24fps with 25% frame interpolation. Most of the time this looks fine to objective viewers.

    I am actually infuriated over the 24p issue with the HV20 that is never mentioned in any of their advertising. Most pro reviewers also fail to mention it as they never actually tried to capture from the tape. Am suppose to be called tommorrow by a 'senier technician' at Canon. Support believes there is a way to extract the 24p but I know that none of them have actually done it themselves. I keep being told, 'there are no plans to upgrade the HV20 in regard to this issue.' Am open to ideas on how to substantially lobby Canon into doing so. It would make the HV20 a remarkable little camera.
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

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  10. #10
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    I wonder if you'd mind posting a very short zipped sequence for testing - a few seconds would suffice nicely, if it wasn't too much to ask.
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  11. #11
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    HV20 24p example

    Let me know if anyone can get a different result. Here's a short 24p clip captured thru Firewire with Premiere Pro (10mb-
    http://www.box.net/shared/static/grc3vdk59d.mpeg

    After a pullup in Fusion, I get frames like these-
    frame 51 (5mb
    http://www.box.net/shared/static/qg6v6mc7re.tga
    frame 63 (5mb
    http://www.box.net/shared/static/ym1bt6d2ud.tga

    The problem particulalry shows up in the red channel.
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

    Demo reel 2017
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOOixvRhcs4

  12. #12
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    Well thats just not right.
    Shrug shoulders and can they actually advertise it that way?
    Bob
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  13. #13
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobt
    Well thats just not right.
    Shrug shoulders and can they actually advertise it that way?
    Bob
    Thats what I said to Canon support- 'fraudulent.' They repeatedly insist all you need to do is a pullup. But I have yet to see it work.
    "O K, so what's the speed of dark?"

    Demo reel 2017
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOOixvRhcs4

  14. #14
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    OH well you mentioned its full frame full size if you capture via PC?
    That might work for my purposes.
    I was looking at the RedRock Micro gear and the HV20.
    http://www.redrockmicro.com/?gclid=C...FTJcIgodw0NYsg
    Figure no matter what camera I can get next this would be important as it shows the HVX200 behind it.
    That kind of add on is a thing that keeps on giving for me. A lower end
    prosumer kind of guy.
    bobt_at_bobfx_com
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    Bob Tasa

  15. #15
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Rid
    Let me know if anyone can get a different result.
    Thanks very much - I won't get to it today, but I'll definitely do some testing.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

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