Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: fundamental flaw in node editing

  1. #1

    fundamental flaw in node editing

    firstly, LW9's node editing is still limited within architectures. you cannot use a scalar layer (for example) in a displacement to be used in a surface.

    secondly, you cannot even reuse a node across multiple surfaces, or even for that matter, neither can you reuse a node from another displaced object.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  2. #2
    A BUG PLANET. duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    708
    That's a fundamental flaw? In most packages you can't share nodes across materials.

  3. #3
    do i really need to say "maya"? you can have any pluggable attribute share a single qualified node existing in maya. there are no borders. yes, materials can share the same input node.

    in other words, the fundamental flaw is that the "nodal" concept is stuck to only several parts of lightwave, and worse unable to be related to each other. this isnt about simply about expanding nodes to other architectures. even if we only have nodes on side of textures, displacements, etc, the nodes themselves are compartmentalised in such a way that they cannot be brought out to be shared.

    again, to reiterate, the best example that tells of this myopic compartmentalistion is the inability for a two surfaces, which belong to the same category (e.g. "surfaces") to share a common node, or a displacement of one object unable to share its input nodes to other objects who'd benefit from a common input (like having a single user input controlling the procedural texture of a landscape).
    Last edited by faulknermano; 12-12-2006 at 02:13 AM.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  4. #4
    agreed faulknermano,

    it seems somewhat of a waste to have the CONCEPT of nodes and yet not implement it to best take advantage of a nodal system.

    this threw me off so much that i was almost certain that i was mistaken in this (i actually had to ask this on a separate thread!).

    i'm thinking in terms of maya too but especially considering the NATURE and CORE COMPETENCY of nodes, what nodal apps DON'T allow sharing of nodes across many entities?

    one of the most economical things about it is that if several materials would have to use the same values, you can just create a SINGLE node and feed it into however many takers you have. instead of replicating a new node for every one.

    this has the added advantage that if you need to change that value, you do it on that single node and everybody gets the change.
    -----------------------------------

    having said that though, it's pretty rare that i see such economical node structures in maya. usually, i see a lot of unnecessary redundancy. too bad there isn't a way to identify identical nodes and delete all but one of them and re-feed them to relevant takers.

    if lw ends up going in this direction, they should make such a tool built in.

    jin

  5. #5
    btw,

    the only way that i've seen to be able to "share nodes" is to just brute force EXPORT the node and re-import it to other nodes that need it.

    this is in effect duplicating the node and not really sharing it but at least you don't have to build a node from scratch.

    jin

  6. #6
    TrueArt Support
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    8,469
    LW9 nodes were made from 3rd party plug-in, therefore it inherits its limits.. It was little enhanced & integrated with LW but still what you're talking about is not possible.. It would require giving up current nodal system and make new one..
    Last edited by Sensei; 01-01-2007 at 02:06 AM.

  7. #7
    I don't think it's node editing is the limiting factor in this case. I'd imagine it's LW structure that holding it back. So I'd bet when the core is changed more we will see Node editor expanded.
    Last edited by Castius; 01-01-2007 at 03:09 AM.

  8. #8
    dynamics...so much fun ;) prospector's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    state of confusion
    Posts
    6,973
    So if I use the 'share nodes' way and I want to slightly change 1 surface, I can't because they are shared and all change.
    If I use 'brute force' way and copy/paste, and decide to slightly change 1 attribute I can....

    HMMmm, I think I like the way it is now.
    Skype...lost_in_3d_space

    Sager
    I7-4800 OC'd to 3.3 GHz
    12G 1600mhz mem
    GTX 765M , 765 cores 1.5 Gig mem
    256 gigs raided SSD drive

  9. #9
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    13,714
    Quote Originally Posted by prospector
    So if I use the 'share nodes' way and I want to slightly change 1 surface, I can't because they are shared and all change.
    If I use 'brute force' way and copy/paste, and decide to slightly change 1 attribute I can....

    HMMmm, I think I like the way it is now.
    I prefer to have a choice. Especially since, with shared nodes, you still have to option to manually copy and paste, but with the current limitations you _don't_ have the option to share.

    Looking at the way I build my scenes, anything that allows me to add more proceduralism is good (i.e. one value to drive x others, be they motions, displacements, surface attributes).

    Also, since nodes are per se moe complex than the previous layer based system, re-usage (more precise: dynamic re-usage using shared nodes) is even more important (the euqivalent for layers would be layer instances).

    Cheers,
    Mike

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by duke
    That's a fundamental flaw? In most packages you can't share nodes across materials.
    Whoa. Houdini? Maya? Renderman? MentalRay? finalRender? Need I go on?

    Mylenium
    [Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by prospector
    So if I use the 'share nodes' way and I want to slightly change 1 surface, I can't because they are shared and all change.
    If I use 'brute force' way and copy/paste, and decide to slightly change 1 attribute I can....

    HMMmm, I think I like the way it is now.
    You're seeing this far too onesided which only indicates a lack of experience in working with nodes. There is no causality for inheritance - if one of your surfaces needs to look different, you simply plug in another node at the point where things need to be changed, but you can still pass on the unmodified parameters to the remaining nodes. Since your node is still connected to the base network, it will inherit all changes, but within the limits specified by your extra node. I don't really see why this should pose a problem - just the opposite is true. With nodes you can achieve a level of control on a global scene level that is impossible and inefficient with simple copy&paste operations.

    Mylenium
    [Pour Mylène, ange sur terre]

  12. #12
    Heir to the Throne RedBull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Underground
    Posts
    1,608
    Totally agree with Faulk....
    It was a wasted implementation, i saw a review that said Nodal was a really good implentation, although it has potential within the first 24hours i wrote a list of improvements (posted in other forum) i totally agree..

    I think it was a fundemental overlook, of what Nodal was meant to achieve.

  13. #13
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    13,714
    Quote Originally Posted by RedBull
    I think it was a fundemental overlook, of what Nodal was meant to achieve.
    Let's just hope that global nodes can be added in at a later revision of LW.

    Cheers,
    Mike - who's got some other gripes with the nodes as well.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by prospector
    So if I use the 'share nodes' way and I want to slightly change 1 surface, I can't because they are shared and all change.
    If I use 'brute force' way and copy/paste, and decide to slightly change 1 attribute I can....

    HMMmm, I think I like the way it is now.
    well it's always possible to copy/paste new nodes even if you're sharing them.

    if you want to change one surface slightly, like minus 10% diffuse, then just add a subtract node before it goes into that surface. of course, it wont affect the other nodes, as long as you network the nodes properly.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  15. #15
    i agree on global nodes; imho the whole "nodal" thing shouldbe kinda a parallel world into LW, which you can enter, do stuff and connetc it to what you want, single/multiple surfaces, displacement, item's channels movement or whatever.
    It would be as useful (or even more), as Lightwolf says, to have Layer instances - just think at the time you spend on adjusting several layers in different channels....

    bye
    Paolo

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •