Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 206

Thread: A small hint for the Newtek Team

  1. #121
    Exception, INANC and I agree, its so much more than that, but I have some thoughts around it I want to spill out

    Industry standards are good, especially when it comes to use of names, but who will follow who in this race of being the first with some sort of feature?

    One of the most re-used standards is the use of the name polygon, but at the same time there are one certain app that just has to throw in the concept face if the polygon has only 3 vertecies. And there you have a different word from LW, vertex instead of point...

    Is it a mesh or is it a model, or is a mesh a part of a model that actually is called an object?... hmmm

    ...and also is it called a skin or a weightmap, and isnt a skin the same as a surface or was that called material... no hold on... its a shader.. no that was only if it was realtime graphics... no thats wrong... its a plugin that enable you to make cool japanese cartoons in LW Imagine the confusion I had when ShockWave introduced me to the concept of shaders, and the only contact with shaders I had so far was the use of Baker inside LW, total confusion... "so a shader is the same as material in SW3D, but...???"

    Then you have the various ways of accessing and tweaking the properties in a model. Is the smoothing of the surface a part of the geometry itself or is it a part of the material? Should the models all be on the root timeline or do they have their individual timelines as well?

    Nowadys we are getting new ways of auto unwrapping the UV of a model and it seems to be two main candidates:

    Peltmapping and UV Unwrap

    Anyone up for a vote?


    There are so many aspects that make up the various industry standards, that it can take the breath away from me atleast.

    My best advice is to use a combination of explanatory naming such as Geometry Smoothing (or Subdivision even though its not as self explanatory) -> followed by the name of the mathematical algorithm its based on. Using terms such as MetaNurbs and HyperNurbs doesnt help much, thats just pure marketing talk.

    Oh, and on the issue of SDS <- standard LW should get multi resolution SDS solution, similar to what you can even find in Truespace (similar to the SDS in Z-Brush). I have sent it to lwfeatures some time ago atleast.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod
    I do hate the marketing slang that has been used for things like PAVLOV, Metanurbs, Hypervoxels etc. It just makes you sound dumb when talking to others who know them by more industry standard terms.

    I also think that its possible to have an underlying node based approach for doing things but still have other simpler ways to access things. Theres no reason why a the layer based cant be just another way to get to nodes if that level of control is needed. Im still all for innovative ways to get to or to use tools as long as it reduces the number of mouse clicks and thinking so I can spend more time doing.
    Quoted for agreement! I have been talking to other graphicians lately, discussing this issue on other applications too "Why does PhotoShop have to use a flat layer structure instead of a more nodal approach...", the same goes for LW. It can look as layers, but in terms of structure, 100% object oriented nodal system.

    http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost...7&postcount=40

  3. #123
    Well, I finally had time to read through this entire thread this morning. Here are my 2 thoughts on the matter.

    1. I agree that the industry standard terms should be used. Why? Well, for one, if you can't fnd enough information about the particular feature in LW's documentation, doing a search on the internet may explain it to you better if several packages are using the same name for it. Kudos to exception for making a good and civil case though.

    2. A healthy b|tch slap goes out to Matt Clary for using a car analogy.

  4. #124
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    13,607
    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger
    2. A healthy b|tch slap goes out to Matt Clary for using a car analogy.
    car analogies 0wnd by hrgiger

    Cheers,
    Mike

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightwolf
    Actually, that screen grab isn't that bad ... at least you have all settings related to rendering in one place.

    Not that I'd like LW to be anywhere as convoluted as that... but it would make sense to at least consolidate some of the options.

    Cheers,
    Mike

    YES! This is exactly what I have been meaning with all my buzz about
    Consolidation and Unification!

    LW NEEDS IT...

    And most (75%?) of it is doable just from creating an intelligent set of configs!

  6. #126
    How Old? Really? Aww Heck colkai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Staffordshire
    Posts
    7,808
    Quote Originally Posted by peteb
    developers can't expect users to just get what things do from a few sentances describing it in mathmatical terms. You need good walk throughs in the manual that comes with the software. I don't want to be searching constantly on the net for a piece of information on what a tool actually does. If the developers put it in then they should describe it properly.

    Pete B
    Oh, I totally agree, I think the manual has to be written in "plain English" so even non-pros can read instantly what a Catmull-Clarke means in 'real' terms and how it handles sub-ds with good examples to back it up.

    I do think it's one area the LW9 docs will need to improve, but hopefully, the open beta team can play a part in this.
    The new features need to be "shown off" to their best advantage by useful tutorials.
    Too old to die young.

  7. #127
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Valencia
    Posts
    3,145
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator
    YES! This is exactly what I have been meaning with all my buzz about
    Consolidation and Unification!

    LW NEEDS IT...

    And most (75%?) of it is doable just from creating an intelligent set of configs!
    Well, as I said before, I think Newtek has not done badly with not cluttering the interface so much and giving us a lot of organized tools and panels. They are not perfect but IMHO they are not bad, but can be IMPROVED.

    And I AGREE on the industry standards that allow us to talk to another software user for example and both know what we are talking about. As Splinegod pointed.

    For example, have a look to Vue Infinite The panels are so badly organized and options sometimes so hidden that you need at least three readings of the manual and more of two months of using it to get used to the stranges places they put very button. Not to mention many times you cannot even see the values you wrote on them!

    As tesellator said, a 75% of it can be done redoing the config files. And maybe the other 25% can be done paying attention to what others has done wrong, and avoid to make the same mistakes!

    Best regards,
    David

  8. #128
    Newbie Member DavidL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesselator
    YES! This is exactly what I have been meaning with all my buzz about
    Consolidation and Unification!

    LW NEEDS IT...
    Stuff like adding glow would be nice if you could enable it and manage its settings in ONE panel. Who cares if the list is a mile long? I'd rather have that than split lists sprinkled throughout the app.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by SplineGod
    I do hate the marketing slang that has been used for things like PAVLOV, Metanurbs, Hypervoxels etc. It just makes you sound dumb when talking to others who know them by more industry standard terms.
    SO quoted for truth. I've had that problem recently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bog
    Wonder if a fried brekky will fix my thumping head.... that's a UI that could do with a tweak...
    Worked for me this morning.
    Well, mostly...
    STUDIO DRAVEN
    Building giant robots since 1996
    Intel Core i7 950
    6Gb RAM
    Nvidia GeForce 9800GT
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Exception
    Dude, it doesn't. Who said anything about other countries?
    An architect moving from one state to another state has to do the licencing exam again to get aqainted with the whole region's terminology, amongst others. If you're a builder in LA then building in NY is going to give you a holw new set of terms, definitions and techniques. So it's of no use dragging some nationalism in here saying the world should follow the us, because it has nothing to do with it.

    WTF are you arguing about??? we are talking about 3D artists and LW not architects or lawyers. get off the tangent please.

    Sucks to be an architect i guess but i dont see how that inefficiency should be present in LW.
    Last edited by Stooch; 02-05-2006 at 12:13 PM.

  11. #131
    Nothing ado about much Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,560
    Quote Originally Posted by Stooch
    WTF are you arguing about??? we are talking about 3D artists and LW not architects or lawyers.
    I was referring to an analogy made by tess regarding the building industry.
    Read all my other posts?

  12. #132
    Nothing ado about much Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,560
    Quote Originally Posted by bryphi77
    I have ot agree I think he has gone loony on us .
    At least i'm trying to be constructive. Your one liners usually show that you have not read most of what has been said.
    So, now i'm loony...

    I'll show you loony!
    Tom grabs a yellow flurry pot of toothpaste and dives in it. The wonderful colors shine all over the place! Yes, I nod my head, yesterday things were much pinker. Do you hear the sound? they color up my nulls in a great nurbian way. Ohh, that Oren-Nayar, he was my friend, but he ate all the ducklings. I was saving them for the cactus.
    *shakes head*
    Last edited by Exception; 02-05-2006 at 01:10 PM.

  13. #133
    obfuscated SDK hacker Lightwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Stuttgart, Germany
    Posts
    13,607
    Quote Originally Posted by Exception
    Tom grabs a yellow flurry pot of toothpaste and dives in it. The wonderful colors shine all over the place! Yes, I nod my head, yesterday things were much pinker. Do you hear the sound? they color up my nulls in a great nurbian way. Ohh, that Oren-Nayar, he was my friend, but he ate all the ducklings. I was saving them for the cactus.
    *shakes head*
    Yo, don't bogart those mushrooms, pass some over dude...
    Cheers,
    Mike

  14. #134
    Beyond Reality WizCraker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Clovis New Mexico
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by Exception
    Recently, since 8.0 really, I have noticed that a small number of functions in Lightwave is being implemented in the interface according to their technical model, and their common name among programmers. I mention 'Monte carlo', 'Catmull-Rom', 'Mitchell / Lanczos reconstruction filter', and now we are promised goodies like 'Lambert', 'Oren Nayar', 'Blinn' and 'Cook-Torrence'.

    While I do have some idea what these things mean and what effect they have and so on, and I am aware that most of the professionals in the field of CG production have a notion of what they are, I almost feel as if a precious thing of Lightwave is going to be swallowed by the wish to conform to standards set by the rest of the industry.
    If users do not know that these names mean they should read the manual. I'm pretty sure Newtek will be includeing a brief explanation in the LW9 manual for those that need a little nudge in understanding what these technologies are and how they work in the new release.

    What I mean by this is that most people have no clue what these words mean, let alone be able to make proper decisions on when to use them.
    What I want to warn about is more scroll menus where to choose between five outlandish words, like what happened to the AA menu.

    Why am I making such a big deal out of this? Because I have to teach people how to use Lightwave, like I have been doing for years. Everything makes sense, transparency, reflection, X amount of passes is all communicatable to everyone, whether they know CG or not, they are qualitative assesments, not technical naming conventions. However when they have to choose between Mitchell of Lanczos, any relation to the word is removed. They have no idea, and explaining it necessitates a lengthy technical explanation that is completely unnecessary and people will forget. These are the people that use LW on a daily basis... artists, architects, designers...
    And I feel that Lightwave, as the only package in the industry, has been so extremely good in relating everyhting in it to useable terms and interface items. 'Knife' is not called 'Interactive single projection subdivider', and there is no check box in the render option panel called Lambert/Phong/Blinn (where I would assume these are actually really there, they just get engaged when a material has a percentage of tranparancy, or reflection, and tracing is enabled or whatever).
    I think it should really stay that way. I would be really disappointed if there was a drop down box in the surface editor on the advanced tab that would just make you choose between blinn cook-torrence blinn and so on, that drop down box below in modeler where to choose between 'standard SDS' and 'Catmull-Clark' or something. That would go straight against the ideology of the whole interface of Lightwave, its workflow and wonderful logic.

    I understand that sometimes this is hard to do, but I think it is imperative that proper attention is placed in the actual integration in terms of naming, placement and activation of these technologies, and to make sure they are as relateable to the real world as possible.
    For instance, do we still need the non-catmull-clark-rom-whatever SDS when the new one is so much better? And if we do, for backward compatibility or some sort of functional reason, isn't there a smarter way? Or at least a better description than just to name it by its theoretical/technical reference name?

    And we can always say that "Lightwave has Cook-Torrence too" for those in the know, for bragging purposes, and point to the manual or so where it is explained that for instance the 'metal' selectionbox is actually that. Or something similar.
    If new users who want to be apart of this industry can't do the research or RTFM about new or existing technologies then I don't know what to tell them. Just like any other industry their are certain terms and names that need to be learned. If a company like NewTek changes a name of an algorithm just to make the lazy users understand then it makes it confusing for those that work in different applications that use the standard names to follow.

    Other industries do not rename important technologies, just imagine those trying to work with standards like CDMA, TDMA, GSM, GPRS, GRX, OMC-R, OMC-D, OMC-S, OAM, SGSN.

    If one of the vendors that provides a product renames which standard they support and then somewhere in their documentation they have something like:

    "To make it easier for those of our customers who do not like learning standards used across the industry, we have came up with some common, easy to remember names that we associate in our Routers... An example for the common standard for CDMA we have chosen the word Cuddly, for TDMA - Teddy, for GSM - Grizzly... If this makes it confusing to work with multiple vendors, then we suggest you only use our products. When you need to have multi-carrier support for Roaming then you can purchase our $4999 yearly Support Contract to tell you how to convert between the all so Confusing standard names to our easy to follow names."

    That may seem extreme, but when companies change names like the above example, it makes it far more confusing for those that have to work with multiple products that are supposely part of the same industry. If you trainees do not understand then you might suggest to pick another industry to work in, which would of course be very limited as they all have their own technologies that need to be understood.
    ImageReality.com

    "Relax...it's just an update for the patch to fix the nerf that nerfed the fix for the update of the patch that broke the fix that was fixed."

    Late 2013 MacPro 12 Core

  15. #135
    CORE 5718 mattclary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Tallahassee, Florida
    Posts
    5,228
    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger

    2. A healthy b|tch slap goes out to Matt Clary for using a car analogy.
    LOL!

    ....................

Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •