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Thread: Lightwave 3D XTreme...?

  1. #31
    Child of time Nitisara's Avatar
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    Personally I hope that NewTek will never go this way, and that LW will stay cheap and complete solution, with some 3rdparty plugs available directly from developers.

    Why:
    1) It is not easy to support all these 3rdparty plugs, and NT will have to do this if they will charge for them.
    2) Rare user will need all these 3rdparty plugs as a must.
    3) Nothing stops user from purchasing these plugs directly from developers.
    4) Another, more powerful tools can appear on the market, making bundled tools obsolete, but already purchased ahead.
    5) It is much better to declare price as $800 instead of $2500 (marketing is also important)
    6) NT anyway will have not much gain (if any at all) from this XTreme bundle, so why they have to mess with this?

  2. #32
    D a r t h W a v e r Nemoid's Avatar
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    Well, actually if you watch how apps like Maya and XSI are sold, you clearly see you get a cheap base version, then an advanced one with more tools and so on. fact is the other version are way pricey !!
    if Maya complete is 2000$, Maya unlimited is way more, and the same happens with XSI.
    Lets add to this the few rendernodes u can get : basically one with the base version , some more with the other.

    Lw is cheaper, it has only one version, and has unlimited rendernodes. this is the great thing that makes it a good solution, especially for solo users, small studios.

    However : i agree that some plugin could be bought and integrated in the app. maybe not F prime or G2, but Maestro could be something to consider.

    i also agree with the sdk statement : its all in integration. third party developers are great , create fantastic tools. what they've to be allowed to create is plugins that integrate seamlessly with the app.

    another thing that should happen is that, in the case of Nt buying third party solutions they should not buy only the code, but also the support of plugin authors, to keep on developing the tools, and integrating them more in the app.

    Its a great thing that great developers like Ikeda were hired his tools were also added to the app. and what happened with bone tools ? they hired that team to develop them. and there are some upcoming lw 9.0 features that let us think to some third party plugins too : so you see, sometimes Nt does that.

    The main thing it has to happen is seamless plugin integration through updated SDK.

    This could be also a good thing for a new Lw core and structure. Lw could become mainly an interface of plugins which seamlessly integrate with the app, that could interact with each other seamlessly too. tools will simply be plugins as it happens to be with free plugins and commercial ones : no difference. and Lw will simply make them work all together.
    Last edited by Nemoid; 12-09-2005 at 12:59 AM.
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  3. #33
    Registered User toma's Avatar
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    reminder :

    Lightwave (with Printed Manual) = 895 $
    Fprime = 399 $
    G2 = 399 $
    Sasquatch = 499 $
    HD Instance = 149 $

    total = 2341 $

    This is what someone will have to spend for a capable Lightwave seat and it is cheap compared to any other software.

    Is it good or is it bad… I don't know… I just hope that NT understand that many of its customers are willing to pay more to help LW development to be faster and better…

    Statement like "NT is a little company" are valid, but what if we find that NT just doesn't want to be a bigger one ?

    The frightening thing is that a newcomer to 3D will just go Maya or Max or even XSI because they look more power full, more professional, and because they are advertised everywhere… and are just a few hundred $ more expensive (but this is not relevant as those newbies will download a cracked version anyway)

    toma

  4. #34
    How Old? Really? Aww Heck colkai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archiea
    Why should folks who have invested in LW for years feel that their toolset should cater only to folks who don't mind being a few years behind. I'd pay extra for a more elegant solution to SSS, Occlusion,
    Guy, if I recall, you've made the same complaints over and over in many (deleted) threads and as people point out. What YOU personally see as high-end and must-have is not neccesarily what the rest of the people (including many top studios) would see as must have.

    I see rocks ahead...
    Too old to die young.

  5. #35
    D a r t h W a v e r Nemoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toma
    reminder :

    Statement like "NT is a little company" are valid, but what if we find that NT just doesn't want to be a bigger one ?

    The frightening thing is that a newcomer to 3D will just go Maya or Max or even XSI because they look more power full, more professional, and because they are advertised everywhere… and are just a few hundred $ more expensive (but this is not relevant as those newbies will download a cracked version anyway)

    toma
    This is unfortunately true. the reasons are :

    1) Lw got behind those packages, in time, just because of a not so clever developing from 6.0 since 7.5 Not so clever doesn't mean they didn't develop the app. It means that the direction taken was not that clever, because even if the tools added were in some case very good, the app didn't become more modern, while Maya, Max, XSI all were modern, at least due to their nodal structure. Rendering in Lw also became a bit old, compared to new engines like Mray, Vray. Kray.

    2) Lw was never advertised for a long time as an high end film production package, differently from the above packages, this despite being a good one, and despite being a leader in TV productions. Actually this is like that still now. but at least we see cool banners here and there : on CGtalk and other forums. this is a good move.

    3) Most companies seeking for artists look for Maya artists. then comes the time for Max, XSI and Lw artists. despite in the market there are wonderful artists using Lw in production and cool studios like Zoic or the Mill or partially Computer Cafe and others using Lw at an outstanding level, considering the whole market Maya is a leader so far. So, clearly, when you search for a job, at an equal skill level you find it easier if you're a Maya artist.

    4) The market Newtek aimed for was mainly the TV production market. Lw, due to its characteristsics, is a leader in that field for sure. And Newtek products are well suited for TV studios, small studios delivering footage and therefone no matter what they use, and solo artists.

    But fact is : if you get into a big budget film feature production is more common you're asked for Maya or XSI skills, with preference for Maya.


    The way to improve this situation is to make become Lw more modern : develop its potential. The new team understood this, and is making this work on a step by step basis, and what i hope is they enhance Lw greatly. the direction taken seems to be good this time.

    From that work, TV production will have great advantages: Lw will maintain its position. This is the first goal even because there are apps which aim to that market too, C4D, XSI with foundation or essential...

    Another consequence could be film feature production could consider Lw as a solution to adopt, again.
    The latest is not so easy : look at XSI , trying, release from release to overcome Maya in this field, recover the old Softimage positio as the leader, and yet being however behind it, despite XSI software being better than Maya, at least in ease of use. Just because unfortunately big productions don't change pipelines so easily.
    Nemoid | Illustrator | 3D artist
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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by archiea
    ...Its this mindset that is the biggest handicap of this community.. that higher end features at an appropriate prices is an "elitist" version. Its not. If there is a market for it, great. Why should folks who have invested in LW for years feel that their toolset should cater only to folks who don't mind being a few years behind. I'd pay extra for a more elegant solution to SSS, Occlusion, adv character anim, advanced fur, Instancing, etc and bullet proof dynamics. Folks who don't can be content with the "complete" version instead of the "unlimited"

    Ask any maya "unlimited" user how they would feel if a complete version was only available because the community had deemed it "elitist" to have things like maya lice, fur, cloth and fluids and so forth.

    its like automobile companys just offering base vehicles. And I know whenever I say that I get folks here who chime up to say that all they need is a simple car to go from A to B. Thanks for proving my point!!!
    Eventually, you'll realize that if and when these features are implemented into Lightwave, they'll do so at the current price, not by splitting up Lightwave into different versions. Newtek has always tried to provide a proffesional package that is both powerful and affordable. You say you've been using Lightwave for years, and yet you still miss this point. Pay more attention in class little guy.
    Once again, you insult the developers of Lightwave by suggesting that the software they make is only appreciated by those "folks who don't mind being a few years behind." Most of the development team is new to Lightwave and have spent the entire 8.x cycle re-writing the core of the application so that it will be easier to add new and innovative features in the future instead of piling new code on top of a outdated core. Sure it has slowed development, but considering they have had to clean up the mess that was made when the original developers bailed, and as has been stated by Jay Roth, it is a much better approach then going "dark" for a few years while they rebuilt the core of the application.
    As far as your comments on Maya, I never stated that having features like
    maya lice(I'm glad we dont' have lice frankly), fur, cloth and fluids was elitest. It is merely my contention that breaking up the software into two seperate versions so you can charge abhorent amounts of money to sell the same software with a few added features is elitest. I'm all for software bundles and I would be for a package that includes Lightwave with some Worley plugs or Lightwave and Realflow or something of that nature. But at least I knew the value of those plug-ins before they were added into a bundle so that I could actually see I'm saving money.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by toma
    reminder :

    Lightwave (with Printed Manual) = 895 $
    Fprime = 399 $
    G2 = 399 $
    Sasquatch = 499 $
    HD Instance = 149 $

    total = 2341 $
    Yeah, don't forget to add in Real-Flow for fluids and syflex for cloth and you're still running at under the $6,999 price tag of Maya Unlimited. $1258 under to be exact not counting taxes for either one.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 12-09-2005 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #38
    Child of time Nitisara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toma
    Fprime = 399 $
    G2 = 399 $
    Sasquatch = 499 $
    HD Instance = 149 $
    I would only add XDof to LightWave instead of Digital Confusion.

  9. #39
    Defender of Mankind Emmanuel's Avatar
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    I am more for an integrated solution anytime vs a third party plugin.
    One of the reasons is this:

    http://www.joealter.com/newSite/c4d.htm

    Its never good to depending from a third party for development.
    Maxon's experiences were not that good after all, that's why they did their own thing.
    At the end, if its worth it, it gets integrated anyway (MotionMixer, Nodal etc...).
    Bye,
    Emmanuel

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  10. #40
    Heir to the Throne RedBull's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link Emmanuel
    Wow, that makes LW and C4D enemies of Joe....

    I think Maxon have the right idea....
    They are doing as i said and having offshoot companies and developers
    contracted to make plugins for C4D....
    And then selling them as plugin modules from Maxon.

    This way it does not interfere with the core development of the main application and development and funding are contained seperately.

    Meaning C4D is not losing features in the core, but adding external options
    like Hair as a module addon....

    The only problem in this case is they seemed to of ripped Joe off in the process. Which is a bit of a surprise..... Because it does seem like it's very much based on Joe's tools. That aside this is the best way to offer more,
    make more money, but still keep your base model software cheap.
    But the development needs to be funded from NT initially.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyhardin
    agree with the masses here, but for different reasons.

    Hypervoxels were originally a plugin for 5.6 (if i remember right. anyone else remember that?) Newtek integrated them.
    and the reason for that good integration, unless i am mistaken, is that HV is a NewTek invention - that is, it is their code. it would be easier to integrate them because they can plan the whole LW development to accomodate that.
    "The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." - C.S. Lewis


  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by faulknermano
    and the reason for that good integration, unless i am mistaken, is that HV is a NewTek invention - that is, it is their code. it would be easier to integrate them because they can plan the whole LW development to accomodate that.
    wow, and they still made those mistakes (leaving it closed to the sdk and little/no development). hmm.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger
    Eventually, you'll realize that if and when these features are implemented into Lightwave, they'll do so at the current price, not by splitting up Lightwave into different versions.
    Sure...but when?

    Take hypervoxels for example... would you prefer to get it as an addition to LW 5.6 or wait and wait and wait until they were included in LW 6. EXACTLY my example right there. Some of us would pay extra to get it right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger

    Newtek has always tried to provide a proffesional package that is both powerful and affordable. You say you've been using Lightwave for years, and yet you still miss this point. Pay more attention in class little guy.
    Yeah yeah yeah.. What is your point? Not having SSS, occlusion, advanced fur and robust dynamics ISN'T professional. Having legacy plugins-turned-features wane in development isn;t professional. Sure LW 9.0 is a great step in the right direction, and I'm happy to see it, but man do we have a road ahead. I'm sure NT is up to the task....

    And yes, being w/ LW since 1.0 has show me also how the market has changed.. from where being a modest but acceesable 3D program isn't enough. You have to compete with the pros that have themselves become modest at least in the pricing arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger

    Once again, you insult the developers of Lightwave by suggesting that the software they make is only appreciated by those "folks who don't mind being a few years behind."
    No, the develpers can only work with whatever resources they have.. with whatever resources a $795 ap with free x.5 updates can offer them in resources.. i.e. is there a mac intel in there right now ready to flip LW over to macintel as soon as the machines hit the street? is it insulting to the developers to point out the truth regarding LW antiquated OpenGL. Sure, folks like you and I understand the gory details regarding this lapse of development... but the market doesn't care. They jsut want the best now.


    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger
    Most of the development team is new to Lightwave and have spent the entire 8.x cycle re-writing the core of the application so that it will be easier to add new and innovative features in the future instead of piling new code on top of a outdated core. Sure it has slowed development, but considering they have had to clean up the mess that was made when the original developers bailed, and as has been stated by Jay Roth, it is a much better approach then going "dark" for a few years while they rebuilt the core of the application.
    Like I said, you and I know these details.. do you think the marketplace cares? Do you think the car industry cares if GM is having problems? No. Folks will buy from other brands.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger


    As far as your comments on Maya, I never stated that having features like
    maya lice(I'm glad we dont' have lice frankly), fur, cloth and fluids was elitest. It is merely my contention that breaking up the software into two seperate versions so you can charge abhorent amounts of money to sell the same software with a few added features is elitest.
    Dude, make up your mind: you just said that having advanced features isn't elitist, just charging for them is? be realistic.. development cost money. Was paying $295 (I think) for Hypervoxels in 1998 elitist? Would you feel less of an elitist if you and everyone were allowed to wait until late 2000 for it in LW6?

    See how the level of conversation and debate just becomes julvenile in this community?



    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger

    I'm all for software bundles and I would be for a package that includes Lightwave with some Worley plugs or Lightwave and Realflow or something of that nature. But at least I knew the value of those plug-ins before they were added into a bundle so that I could actually see I'm saving money.
    Sorry. I'd rather Newtek develop those advanced features that they plan 2 years down the road now. and offer them to folks here who can afford to pay for them now, and allow folks who don't to get them in the next revision.

    Ask anyone who used Adobe camera raw before it was included in Photoshop. It allowed folks to work with RAW photographs in PS without having to wait for the next update cycle. How can anyone debate the advantages of getting advancd features now. Getting 3D tracking, advanced character animation, instancing, advanced shaders NOW in an integrated form, not hacked together from the efforts from the community, but proffesionaly integrated. Now THATS a professional app.

  14. #44
    Beyond Reality WizCraker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaneckel
    I think if they were to do anything, it would be more specific per user. IE:

    ~Charecter Animation
    ~Architecture
    ~Basic Design
    ~Special effects

    Being a starving artist/student, It'd be nice to have a simple package to just render simple models in.That is if you worked for a team you could buy a simple package and pay for what youa need instead of all. if that makes sense...

    2 cents

    For the cost of a math textbook [I had a Calculus book cost $210] you can get Lightwave 3D as a student that is not limited in use [minus commercial work] or limited on a yearly license. Plus you can upgrade it to commercial license within 6 months after purchasing it as a student [but if price is the issue keep the student license until you get good enought to get a real job].
    ImageReality.com

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  15. #45
    Beyond Reality WizCraker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger
    Yeah, don't forget to add in Real-Flow for fluids and syflex for cloth and you're still running at under the $6,999 price tag of Maya Unlimited. $1258 under to be exact not counting taxes for either one.
    Syflex Cloth is not supported or even begun development for Lightwave as a plugin. Saying that Syflex Cloth is even an option for Lightwave owners would be false claims. In an email recently from Syflex they said they are investigating the possiblity of a Lightwave plugin for future developments but at the current time they do not see a market available for useing resources to pursue a Lightwave port.

    If you want Syflex cheapest route would be Softimage 5.0 Advanced as you get the Syflex v.3.0 Advanced Cloth, XSI Hair and Fur, Behavior Crowd Animation System, Ageia™ physX™ physics simulation engine, mental ray v.3.4, and GATOR.

    Haveing Syflex and their Behavior sysem alone is worth the $7000 price tag.

    Eventually Lightwave will become just as or more featured based and powerful, will the price stay low, probably not. When that time does come, we will all have a better Lightwave.
    ImageReality.com

    "Relax...it's just an update for the patch to fix the nerf that nerfed the fix for the update of the patch that broke the fix that was fixed."

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