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  1. #1
    Registered User silverlw's Avatar
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    Kray

    Hi pixym! ( and wacom and everybody else )
    Thanx for letting me try your room with Kray. I have found a whole bunch of bugs thanx to your room, so Gregorz is now a very bizzy man for the moment
    I did a testrender yesterday (15 hrs render 5120x2880) and despite the bugs i like the outcome very much. I have been quiet for some days since development of Kray is now in an very intensive phase of testing, bughunting and coding of new functionality. The new "look" of demo is now done so the watermark with lot's of K's all over is gone. Instead there is "Kray V2.0 Rendertime 12minutes, 20.000 photons etc.." only in bottomline. I think and hope you will all be exited to try out the demo wich will be out in a couple of days now but it's hard to tell an exact date.

    For those who havent followed the development of Kray render there is an old thread Here

    The preview window handles resolutions up to 640x480 without scaling them in anyway. If resolution is higher than that it will be downscaled to fit into preview window. Limited Region also works which could help sometimes. If Resolution is set to 640x480 and multiplier to 200% it will zoom into the limited region if it fits within the boundary's of preview window.

    Don't try and load your old scenes straight ahead without any modifications since they will probably not work as you've noticed. Ive posted this before as some guidelines for successfull usage of Kray.

    • Double sided surface flag is not supported
    • Translucency is quite slow with GI.
    • Procedural textures don't work
    • “Reflection options” in surface Environment panel supported are Ray Tracing + Backdrop and Ray Tracing + Spherical map. Reflection blurring works.
    • Color highlights, Color Filter, Diffuse Sharpness are all supported. Additive Transparency is not though.
    • “Refraction Options” are not supported. “Refraction blurring” doesn't work (bug is worked on).
    • Shader plugins don't work
    • Light flags don't work
    • Do not use ambient light
    • Use only lights with intensity falloff
    • Backdrop or Imageworld.p doesn't cast photons use sphere object instead
    • Environment plugins, Volumetrics, Pixel and Image filters are not supported
    • Unseen by camera, cast shadows works correctly
    • Unseen by rays, Self shadow, Receive Shadow is not supported
    • Turn on all LW render flags (Ray Trace Shadows, Ray Trace Reflections, Ray Trace Transparency(- has no effect), Ray Trace Refraction)
    • Set Ray Recursion Limit to 24 (That's how many bounces Kray will use)
    • Kray uses for subpatched objects subdivision setting from Display SubPatch
    • Level and not Render SubPatch Level. It effectively exports WYSIWYG.



    "Some advices to prevent the most common mistakes by those without any previous experience of a photon renderer.

    1. Kray is very well integrated into lw but works completely different than a montecarlo renderer so read the manual and do the tutorials.

    2. Kray now renders all kinds of lights but only those with some falloff will cast photons. Objects with luminosity will also cast photons. Imageworld.p will work with Kray but only cast FG rays so to get an hdri or other image to cast photons map it on some geometry.

    3. Procedurals don't work (yet) and kray should ignore them but sometimes they might lead to crashes so try avoid them as much as possible.

    4. Build your scenes with Kray in mind to avoid problems. One bad example i have seen much of is that people tend to add sunlight with an arealight high and far away. When Kray starts shooting photons 95% of the light will not hit anything useful wich leads to poor quality and longer render times. The better solution is to use a spotlight with narrow cone angle and aim it at the window. Sunlight is straight and hard not "fuzzy" unless it's scattered by something like a curtain.
    Use a square polygon or area light outside the window to add ambient skylight rather than one large HDRI sphere outside the room. If a HDRI sphere is used it has the same problems as a distant area light, it will shoot photons in all directions and only a few of them will come in through the window."

    5. A VERY useful "trick" to get optimal FG ray settings is to do following:

    Render "Photons estimate - precomputed" with "shared GI for all frames" enabled. The photonmap and irradiance map will be calculated once and then saved.
    Now switch diffuse model to "Photonmapping" and cached irradiance + Load GI from file. Go to FG tab and enable "show samples".
    Now when you test render the GI (photonmaps+irradiance) will always be loaded from file and the final result together with FG rays computes much faster and you can easily change FG ray settings to further improve quality.

    6. Don't use "Load recent scene" since that might lead to crashes for the moment.
    Use normal "Load scene" instead.
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    Last edited by silverlw; 05-12-2005 at 05:34 AM.

  2. #2
    Super Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    A quick (five minutes) test of that scene you posted. Lightwave F9, interpolated radiosity, five AA passes (with motion blur). Some gamma adjustment in Pshop. Not too shabby, but all the details are completely washed out.
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  3. #3
    Super Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    With monte carlo instead. Only one bounce, 'cause multiple monte carlo bounces in F9 kind of suck. Five passes of AA again, probably about as long as the previous one. Some gamma adjustment, slight noise reduction.

    Hey, it almost looks like a painting!
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    Last edited by Captain Obvious; 05-03-2005 at 10:50 AM.

  4. #4
    Super Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    Woah, with two MC bounces, it took 26 minutes to render! Much less noise, though, despite the same exact settings (except for number of bounces, of course).


    I would really like to fiddle around with Kray, but I don't have a PC (well, at least not one in working order).
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  5. #5
    Don't forget your old friend occlusion. 27 sec no reflections, 3 min with reflections. 1 min photoshop. everything was left stock from original scene for lights and materials. Just added occlusion shader.
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  6. #6
    Registered User silverlw's Avatar
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    Thanx for all your contributions and i hope to see more.
    Captain obvious: yes Noise and rendertimes goes skyhigh when you do more than once bounce in lw or fprime. Adding Ambientlight is a very poverfull substitute for more bounces.
    vpii: Occlusion is very powerfull and fast but should only be used as a basic foundation for small cavities and hard to reach places. When you use it with large scale objects it looks a bit funny since their is no direction at all on the shadows and they are all the same amount and scale everywhere. Try to render out a occlusionpass with smaller shadows and add some interpolated/mblur/radiosity. I think that would give an even better result and render quite fast.

  7. #7
    Super Member Captain Obvious's Avatar
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    What occlusion shader, and how did you apply it?


    As for multiple bounces... Is that an equally big problem in Fprime? If I add an extra bounce in LW, the render time will double or even tripple. It doesn't really add more noise, as such (the second MC image I posted had two bounces, and less noise), it just increases the render time. Could someone with Fprime perhaps take that scene and let it cook for five minutes or so with one bounce and then again with two bounces (with the same amount of time and the same settings), and post the result? I'd be interested in seeing the difference.
    Last edited by Captain Obvious; 05-03-2005 at 02:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Newbie Member Top Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
    With monte carlo instead. Only one bounce, 'cause multiple monte carlo bounces in F9 kind of suck.
    Is F9 the thing that comes with Lightwave? If it is then I guess I should stop using monte carlo if it sucks!

  9. #9

    bug in luminous polygons ?

    Hi all, here's something strange.
    The scene is lit by a spot (SUN by now) and luminous polys ("skylight" by now) outside the doors. They're way faster than area lights, imho.
    For some strange reasons, skylight and SUN interact in an odd way.
    If i turn SUN Off, skylight cast correct light and Fg rays (first pic). After, you can see a render of SUN alone, i deleted skylight (second pic).
    With the two sources together, it seems skylight does not cast FG rays (third pic). Notice the white wall above the main window, it's way too dark in the last pic; it seems skylight is not added to Sun bounced light in some areas.

    NB: skylight polys are unaffected by SUN and has all shadow flag deactivated.

    Anyone encountered this ?

    Paolo Zambrini

    *** EDIT: it seems i'm getting a very slight of improvement using "compute as DIRECT" in Luminosity settings. Manual is not clear about this: if i use Indirect luminosity computation method, does this light bounces around ? Again, if i'm true here, why did first image came out correct ? i was using Indirect method there.
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    Last edited by Pavlov; 08-17-2005 at 04:48 PM.

  10. #10
    Member vsele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlov
    Hi all, here's something strange.
    The scene is lit by a spot (SUN by now) and luminous polys ("skylight" by now) outside the doors. They're way faster than area lights, imho.
    For some strange reasons, skylight and SUN interact in an odd way.
    If i turn SUN Off, skylight cast correct light and Fg rays (first pic). After, you can see a render of SUN alone, i deleted skylight (second pic).
    With the two sources together, it seems skylight does not cast FG rays (third pic). Notice the white wall above the main window, it's way too dark in the last pic; it seems skylight is not added to Sun bounced light in some areas.

    NB: skylight polys are unaffected by SUN and has all shadow flag deactivated.

    Anyone encountered this ?

    Paolo Zambrini

    *** EDIT: it seems i'm getting a very slight of improvement using "compute as DIRECT" in Luminosity settings. Manual is not clear about this: if i use Indirect luminosity computation method, does this light bounces around ? Again, if i'm true here, why did first image came out correct ? i was using Indirect method there.
    Secondo me , aldilà del problema incontrato, il secondo render è il migliore dei tre, anche se è un pò scuro.....io lavorerei solo con il Sun Spot aumentando l'intensità...........
    http://www.3dlvisualisation.com.au3dl
    Workstation: Dual Quad Xeon 2.66 4 Gb ram Nvidia GT8600 512mb Windows XP64

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlov
    Hi all, here's something strange.
    The scene is lit by a spot (SUN by now) and luminous polys ("skylight" by now) outside the doors. They're way faster than area lights, imho.
    For some strange reasons, skylight and SUN interact in an odd way.
    If i turn SUN Off, skylight cast correct light and Fg rays (first pic). After, you can see a render of SUN alone, i deleted skylight (second pic).
    With the two sources together, it seems skylight does not cast FG rays (third pic). Notice the white wall above the main window, it's way too dark in the last pic; it seems skylight is not added to Sun bounced light in some areas.

    NB: skylight polys are unaffected by SUN and has all shadow flag deactivated.

    Anyone encountered this ?

    Paolo Zambrini

    *** EDIT: it seems i'm getting a very slight of improvement using "compute as DIRECT" in Luminosity settings. Manual is not clear about this: if i use Indirect luminosity computation method, does this light bounces around ? Again, if i'm true here, why did first image came out correct ? i was using Indirect method there.

    Yes this is a confirmed bug and hopefully Grzegorz is working on it. If you try turning photons mde to emmited instead of received you should get correct results though.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jure
    Yes this is a confirmed bug and hopefully Grzegorz is working on it. If you try turning photons mde to emmited instead of received you should get correct results though.
    interesting.. i looked for a "solution key" for hours.
    anyway, i wonder if there is a way to get correct interior lighting with "received". Maybe i should consider using are lights instead of luminous polys, but it's much, much slower and grainy.
    I wonder is someone noticed other odd behaviors with luminous polys.. i.e. if they're unseen by camera they work strangely, and they have some other odd interactions with direct lighting. Is there a commonly used trick to use Area lights as skylighting without getting high rendertimes ?

    Vsele: i dislike monochrome-lighted interiors, a good lighting always come from a good balance of warm sunlight and cold skylight.

    Paolo

  13. #13
    Another question:
    Is there a link between the number of Photons and FG calculation time ?
    I.e, if i cast 30000 photons and then 100000 photons, with same FG settings i get similar rendertimes ? I know Irradiances will take a bit more to calculate, but i think we're talking of less than a minute. Apart from this, does FG takes more time if i shot more photons before ?

    Paolo

  14. #14

    HELP - flickering on animation with stored GI data !

    Hi all,
    i'm rendering an interior movie with Kray using stored GI data and "both" mode so i get an incremental saving of GI infos.
    I get some flickering i cannot nderstand, since GI data is loaded. I thought it was pathtracing (i set up 2 patctrace bounces at 3% distance in photon tab), but i get flickering after disabling this too.
    So, how can i get a clean and flicker free movie from kray ?

    Paolo

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavlov
    Another question:
    Is there a link between the number of Photons and FG calculation time ?
    I.e, if i cast 30000 photons and then 100000 photons, with same FG settings i get similar rendertimes ? I know Irradiances will take a bit more to calculate, but i think we're talking of less than a minute. Apart from this, does FG takes more time if i shot more photons before ?

    Paolo
    No the number of photons doesn't effect FG rendering. That's essentially the trick of photon mapping with final gathering method. You save FG time by precalculating irradiances...

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