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Thread: Camera input produces faint verticle lines

  1. #61

    Y/C camera vertical lines

    Paul,
    Yes we have the same problem with our older JVC (Y/C) cameras we replaced with our new Sonys. I tried them on 3 different VT4 systems with the same vert lines in the picture. The JVC has 11 vertical lines per color bar where the Sony Component has 6 lines per colorbar.

    As for the cost of the filters we purchased delay equalized from Allen Avionics. The butterworth filters would most likely work if you have the time and equipment to build them.

    Fairchild semiconductors makes some IC filters that look real good made for this application. They have 5mhz bandpass for the (Y) and 1.8 mhz bp for the (U&V) signals. Again it would take some R&D and time to get them working.

  2. #62
    Creator of BobFX for VT Bobt's Avatar
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    I am sure that Newtek or someone there can whip those up.
    When you are a hardware guy it doesnt take much to mask
    a board and test the results. In fact they can save on the
    power and casing by puting the YU and V in the same case.
    Makes the circuit board costs.
    So Paul, Knock on a DOOR or octagon and say HEY can you make
    one of these things. Breadboarding and testing should take
    about 4 hours and a run to Radio shack.
    Anyway it was long long ago that I used to do this. Not sure I could
    do it. I know you are all busy in there in Newtek land.

    Bob
    bobt_at_bobfx_com
    www.bobfx.com
    Bob Tasa

  3. #63
    I'm having the same symptoms on a new VT4 system but on composite. Through the old switcher the signal looks fine.

    The symptoms are exactly the same, but I thought it couldn't happen on composite?

    The three cameras are JVC KY-D29's and the CCU's are RMP-200's.
    Only 2 of the three CCU's show the problem.

    Things I've tried:
    I've changed cables
    attached the CCU's directly to the SX-84
    swapped cameras/CCU's and it follows the two CCU's
    swapped SX-84 inputs and it follows the two CCU's
    luma filter enabled and disabled

    I will try to connect them through component tomorrow and see what happens.

    Any other suggestions?

  4. #64
    VT[5] SpeedEdit Pilot Jim Capillo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VT Owner
    I'm having the same symptoms on a new VT4 system but on composite. Through the old switcher the signal looks fine.

    The symptoms are exactly the same, but I thought it couldn't happen on composite?
    I've stated on other threads (and here) that I had it happen feeding the Trinity into the VT ( [2] at the time, I think) via composite....... so it does happen there also.
    Jim Capillo

    CW Television Productions
    100 Cummings Center, Suite 309-G
    Beverly, MA 01915

    www.cwtvproductions.com

  5. #65
    thank god i found this thread!!! i registered here but i rarely followed this forum till VT4. i've notice the vertical line problem ever since vt1 w/speed razor. unfortunately when i reported it to newtek and sent them .tga screen captures of the problem they were unable to duplicate it. so i thought i was the only toaster guy with this problem.

    i've had several years with my toaster trying to resolve this problem through the various upgrades. i've had to replace my beta decks 3 times thinking it was my machines. on the third attempt i had a totally new head installed into my pvw2800 thinking it was a damaged read/record head. i've had to send in my beta camera in for servicing thinking it was the way it was being recorded.

    i've replaced every single cable through the years including toaster rgb cables. the list goes on.

    any way here's what i've found out. THE VERTICAL LINE PROBLEM IS IN EVERY INPUT OF THE TOASTER CARD. SDI, COMPONENT, S-VIDEO, COMPOSITE and FIREWIRE. all have varying degrees of noticability. the worst being on component and least being on firewire.

    you can check the firewire since i'm sure everyone is using that in some way or another. capture firewire video through VTs batch capture and then capture video through a 3rd party software with the same ins and outs. [premiere, vegas video, whatever] some of you might be lucky and not see others will notice the difference when you do a split screen.

    why did i keep toaster if i had these problems? it's still the fastest editing system for the price. And i don't use toaster to capture video but another video capture card. I just convert them to .avi files and edit in toaster.

    I'd like to thank you guys for finding a solution to this problem you don't know how much i appreciate it. I'd by all of you guys a couple of rounds of beer on me.

    THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU..........

  6. #66
    Well, the CCU's don't have the component boards in them, just the RGB boards so that was a no-go.

    On the upside, we did fix the problem. First we tried pasing through a UVW-1800 and that cleaned up the signal. Kinda pricey, but it did work.

    Then we started looking at other old equipment to stick in there. We found an old proc amp and it removed the lines, but introduced its own noise. That's why the proc amp was no longer in use. The cool part was that it removed the lines even in bypass mode. Good sign for anyone trying to remove the problem.

    We found one old DPS TBC and that worked great. It was clean and removed the lines completely. Now to dig up another one from elsewhere in the studio.

    IMHO, this is proving that the problem can happen on composite. I do however think that in my case, the problem is caused by two slowly failing CCU's that would have eventually shown up on the old analog switcher we replaced. The filtering on the VT card could be better, but it would have only masked the problem.

    I would suggest to everyone with this problem to go through your old stuff and see what you can pass through before spending $250+ per input on filters.

    Good luck guys

  7. #67

    Fix for vertical lines

    Quote Originally Posted by jport

    you can check the firewire since i'm sure everyone is using that in some way or another. capture firewire video through VTs batch capture and then capture video through a 3rd party software with the same ins and outs. [premiere, vegas video, whatever] some of you might be lucky and not see others will notice the difference when you do a split screen.
    Jport,
    This test would seem to say the problem in the firewire may be software and not hardware since you used the same firewire input port for VT4 and the other 3rd party software. The only difference is the software.

    I wonder if the component problem we are seeing is software or hardware? If it were software it could be alot cheaper to fix (maybe).

    I noticed when using the composite inputs the default (advanced) settings on the procamps had the luma filters enabled and disabled when component inputs were selected. So Newtek must have seen some problem in the composite mode.

    I understand your frustration in trying to find the problem, I called my vendor who is very knowledgable in VT4, and called NewTek (tech support) and both said they had not seen the problem. I felt I had to being something wrong. All of my cameras and VT4 were new. And I had no personal experience with VT4 even though it was recommended highly from three sources. Later my vendor said he had seen this before after I carried one of my Sony and JVC cameras 300 miles to thier location. I don't think many of thier customers use CCUs

    Finaly after posting on this forum we started getting replys that a lot of users were haveing this problem and Newtek had even been working on it.

    I would have fell alot better and not so frustrated If NewTek would have told me when I called tech support that there may be a need for filtering it would have saved me a month pulling what is left of my hair out trying to figure this out.

    I would reccomend for a new user of a VT4 system to buy the cameras and VT4 from the same vendor and tell them to make it work in the mode you specify.

    Jim
    Last edited by busseyjc; 03-18-2005 at 06:53 PM.
    Jim Bussey
    Tallahassee, FL

  8. #68
    Here we are 2 years later. Any more posts to solve this? We replaced 2 VT4 cards in 2 machines about 4 months ago and it completely fixed the JVC KY19's. The DSR390's still have the lines. I also have a Tricaster-pro and have the newest card they make and its still there. I want to buy a Studio but the vertical lines suck and I hate using composite inputs. I also don't want to add anymore delay with lowpass filters. Are there any other threads I'm missing or has there been a fix that I haven't seen? Thanks. www.pvsnc.com
    Bill Rahn - PVS
    Toaster User Since 1990
    www.pvsnc.com

  9. #69
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    I tried to explain what is causing this problem 2 years ago and it fell on deff ears both by everyone on the forum and NewTek never responded. I assumed that noone responded to me because it would have been too costly to fix the problem. I can tell you what causes the problem but it is up to NewTek to fix it. If anyone wants me to go through it again just let me know.
    Dispite popular belief, Digital does not mean quality.

  10. #70
    Plum Moving Media
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveg
    I tried to explain what is causing this problem 2 years ago and it fell on deff ears both by everyone on the forum and NewTek never responded.
    Same here. This is a source of constant frustration because we know that our image quality SHOULD look much better than it does with this problem.

    -Kevin Petajan
    ------------------------------------
    Milwaukee, WI

  11. #71
    Well that's interesting. As I said earlier, the JVC's are good to go. The sony's are not. I know Paul watches these forums and I read some of his responses earlier in this post. I've looked around at other systems and I really think this is one of the top systems especially for it's price point. I've been in the Newtek family since 1989 and going to another company is like abandoning the family. I've struggled through all the new products when they came out and have stayed with them so I have to keep pounding this until they tell me to leave them alone and that they can't fix it. Then I have the choice of composite inputs, which I did for years with the Amiga, or going to a different system which does exist but are almost twice the money. A buddy of mine in Forida said "Yeah, but at least the other systems don't have the dark bars in the background." If more Sony people would speak up, I think it would force them to fix the Sony CCU's just like they did the JVC's. I am sitting in a colliseum right now with 14,000 people who are`watching 15' x 20' projection screens. I'm running 2 studio cameras and 1 camera on a jib. I am mixing with the Pro unit. It would be nice to be running component. I hope someone will admit that they are not able to fix this or that they can before I buy the studio. I'm ready to buy one now. After you do a little research Paul, can you let us know something? Thanks
    Bill Rahn - PVS
    Toaster User Since 1990
    www.pvsnc.com

  12. #72
    It's ALL about the light Paul Lara's Avatar
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    Bill,
    As best I can remember, the SONY CCU's are sending a high-frequency signal that causes this. VT[4] is simply passing all signal data that it receives. The VT cards manufactured since 2006 actively filter this out-of-range signal. If you have this problem, our hardware team says you can get a low-pass filter from Allen Avionics that will supress the spurious frequencies.

    Paul
    Last edited by Paul Lara; 07-10-2007 at 10:46 AM.
    Don't stream it - TriCast it!

  13. #73
    Toaster Oven
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    FWIW, McAfee site advisor says of allenavionics.com:
    After entering our e-mail address on this site, we received 1.5 e-mails per week. They were very spammy.

  14. #74
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    The problem is not really the Sony ccu. The problemlies in the way VT samples the signal from a source. Since the sample of a frame is digital VT samples a tiny slice of video then samples another tiny slice of video next to that one. The result is a sample much like a partly closed venitian blinds turned sideways. VT grabs a fast sample then the timer says grab another a split second later, leaving gaps of ungrabbed video durring the wait state. In trying to grab higher resolution video the grab time is sometines too short to pick up an entire video cycle correctly from higher definition video. I gave up trying to import composite video from the old Toaster 4000 on an Amiga from the higher quality HQ5 clips because the vertical sampling of the PC version of VT grabs it too quick to give a clean video frame. If you import clips from the Amiga Toaster 4000 that were recorded with the standard resolution mode they import into the PC VT just fine. If I left anything out, Paul, just email me and I will explain the problem like I did to your tech people a few years ago when they said that it would take reengineering the hardware and software to fix the problem. Now that computers are much faster maybe they can fix the problem instead of just letting us theorize on what is causing it and passing the blame. Lengthen the sample time and shorten the wait time between pixel samples or increase subsampling by a factor of 2 and the problem is solved. Does anyone else now understand what is causing the problem? As to why delay lines and medium quality distribution amps appear to fix the problem, as the signal passes through the delay line or amp the signal is degraded and distorted just enough for the sampling time of VT to be able to pick up all the information of an entire pixel. UAnfortunately the actual result is, in reality, a lower quality original signal being fed into the VT which is not the answer anyone wants to hear. Result is lower quality video to edit with. I hope everyone will prod NewTek to recognize this as a serious problem and encourage NewTek to at least acknowledge that they understand what the problem is. Now let's hope that NewTek doesn't just lower the bandwith on the imput of the VT hardware to mask the problem instead of maintaining the hi quality that VT is really capable of.
    Dispite popular belief, Digital does not mean quality.

  15. #75
    XDCAM HD production ScorpioProd's Avatar
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    Wow... That's a blast from the past... I remember how I never could get a clean VTNT capture from my Flyer in HQ5... It always did have vertical lines... My solution at the time was to send it through a S-VHS deck to feed it to the VTNT as Y/C instead of composite and that fixed... Probably through the mechanism you suggest.
    Eugene
    Scorpio Productions

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