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Thread: To Proton: LW8 vs Subdiv distort on UV

  1. #1
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    To Proton: LW8 vs Subdiv distort on UV

    Hello Proton,

    I`d like to ask, does LW8 overcome this silly bug, or not? To me it`s the most important feature missing now (based on the videos you post during the past weeks). If it is still exists in LW8, then tell us, when it will be solved.

    I`m sorry, but I`m very upset about this issue. It makes subpatch rendering almost impossible. I know there are workarounds, but I really don`t want to spend my time with workarounds. Please inform us about this issue.

    Thanks,
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

  2. #2
    Partially Baked blabberlicious's Avatar
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    I'd like to be the first to join in a request for this....it's essential.

    Jin Choung...it time for you to step forward (again!) and fight the good fight.

    Please NT, reassure us!

    Our fingers are bleeding from countless posts about this.

    All the best.
    Steve Williams | d i g f r e a k | UK

    Mac: Dual 2.5GHZ G5, 2g Ram, ATi 128 OSX 10.3.7

    PC: AMD 64 X2 Dual Core +3800, Quadro FX 1300, 2 GiG Ram

  3. #3
    I'm working on a project right now that has me so frustrated because I'm wasting so much time with silly workarounds.

    I'll add this to my list of reasons to not upgrade to 8 until I hear otherwise.

  4. #4
    what is this problem you guys are talking about??? can someone please explain what the problem with UV's and sub, thank you
    -jonn

  5. #5
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    Make a simple model for subdiv. UV Map it, apply a simply checker texture, then hit TAB. You`ll see the problem. It`s a HUGE problem
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

  6. #6
    forsooth,

    did someone summon ME?! behold! i am come and mine eyes blaze fire and my *** spouts lightning!

    (it's the same thing i say when i go to bed)

    anyhoo, don't hold your breath for 8. everything that i've seen and heard say that it is NOT in the cards.

    unfortunately, we're stuck with workarounds for now.

    p.s. in terms of technology though, unless they do a radical rewrite of lw's underlying architecture, i think that the only solution POSSIBLE is something like a workaround.

    and koot, do a search on these boards for subdivision and distortion and hold onto your butt and prepare to be assualted with wave after wave and incriminating bitmaps!

    jin

  7. #7
    I would love to see distortion free textures and if I'm not mistaken, it was improved in 7.5 somewhat from previous versions. I think the new development team is all about integrating Lightwave's features. Let's just hope that applies to Subpatches and UV's.

  8. #8

    After countless hours....

    I would like to add my request for a fix to the UV distortion on sub-d model problem.

    It took many, many more hours than it should have to get the UVs on this dog to happen. If I weren't my own boss, I would've been fired.
    I'm happy with the results, but it took way too much time jumping through every work around to get the texture to stick on a sub-d model. (the swirl marks in the fur are supposed to be there). A better work flow would be much appreciated.

    Attached are a rendering and the UV map as it is.

    I'm curious if the addition of animatable UVs changes anything in the model format. Will previous models/UVs be supported? And does the change fix any of the UV distortion problems?

    Looking forward to what LW8 has to offer.

    Best regards,
    Bill C.
    www.dedicateddigital.com
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #9
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    Jin, I talked to few developers (including Maya plugin developer guys). They told me, in case of LW there is NO need to rewrite the underlying architecture, but implementing a subdivision dependent UV "subdividing" code, as I first thought. The process is simple. The code has to represent cage UV points as bezier control points, the edges has to be handled as spline cage (like in Maya the Spline Edit CVs), and the all thing it has to be done, that subdivide this splines into subdivision edges based upon the level of subdivision. I`ll illustrate it in my next post!
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

  10. #10
    hey jester,

    actually, i think that would NOT work.

    because, if we're talking about discontinuous UVs (which are the only ones worth talking about), the subdivision of UVs would have to remember that edges of a separated 'uv part' is not necessarily a free floating edge in 3d space and therefore SHOULD NOT GET ROUNDED OFF!

    that is, let's say that you have a guy's head. let's also say that you select four polys in the middle of his forehead and project them into uvspace.

    subdivision would turn those four quads into a circular shape in uvspace. but the perimeter of those four edges would not look anything like that in 3d space.

    also, in order to calculate the subdivision shape properly in uvspace, it has to remember the ANGLE in which it was projected into uvspace.

    what i mean is, depending on how an edge is projected into uv space, the subdivided curvature of that edge could go in wildly different ways.

    but that's not what happened in 3dspace.

    does that make sense?

    so it seems to me that either lw needs a history to do it like maya... or it would have to remember 1. what angle every separate, discontuous piece was initially allocated into uvspace AND 2. have to remember which edges are not actually unwelded in 3d space.

    as i've said before, that's a LOT of overhead of every single piece and i that's why maya did it the way that it did.

    hopefully, i'm wrong. interested to see what you've got.

    jin

  11. #11
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    You are right jin, I`ve just tested it. My theory although works perfectly with INNER edges of an continuous UV area. As it shows here:



    However, I made a test in Maya, and I include it also here:



    In Maya you have paramter for keeping MAP BORDER intact, so it won`t smooth out the BORDER edges. I think this could be a UV parameter...
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

  12. #12
    kNight Errant lord's Avatar
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    Oh Lord yes!

    ......

    But I doubt it.

    .....

    Oh well.....

    I would be happy if that was all NewTek Dev worked on for an entire release!

    No really I would.

    I would dance in circles with joyous rapture, I would leap about like an idiot, I would not be able to contain my ecstasy, and run out and tell everyone I know, I would.. ..
    - What a set of absurdities thou art stringing together Sancho! What has what we are talking about got to do with the proverbs thou art threading one after the other? -

  13. #13
    hiya jester,

    yah, that's why i think the way that maya actually handles the problem (by allowing you to capture the uvs at a very high mesh resolution and then allow the user to step back down to low res to skin and such) to be a really ingenious and low resource way to go.

    but alas, it involves history. that's why my lw approximation of this technique simply requires multiple meshes that are LINKED.

    so no fix for this in 8. hopefully, they've got a plan of attack for upcoming upgrades.

    jin

  14. #14
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    I don`t think so. But I`m afraid aslo this isn`t solved. Then, I have to find alternative rendering solution, until it is solved
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

  15. #15
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    Actually, Maya Smooth is not the same as LW`s subdiv. Almost the same, but not identical. The way it works is jut simply recompute the UV with each subdivision, and it is hardcoded into the model. Whenever you increase the iteration (in the history) Maya recomputes the UV. In LW it could work in a similar manner. Whenever you change your subdivision level LW should recompute the current UV. An additional parameter of UV could became handy : Smooth UV border.

    As I see (and working enough with Maya in our studio) this UV Subdiv solution is a little overmistificated.

    If you have access to Maya, test it with a simple plane. If you set Keep Map Borders to Off, your UV will behave just like as I showed you on the LWTheory.jpg above.

    What is a big difference, and requires the rewrite of UV system itself, that in Maya (and in Max, XSI, and all the rest) one geometry vertex may have multiple UV vertices. LW handles this with the discontinuous UV maps (if I understood well), and it`s a dead end. That is why you have to unweld your model time to time to make heavy UV editing, which is a silly thing also.
    Jester

    Me is me you are you,
    Who is the jackass?
    Me or you?

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